2010 batting order

[kyle b]

im sorry, but i dont see how you give money up to cameron, and then are happy with signing a 4-5 pitcher like looper in the offseason because if you resign cameron, thats all your getting. do you all really want another season like this year?? cameron has given us good defense but we can do without him. HE STRUCK OUT 156 TIMES!!!!!! we really dont need him. we need someone who can get on base consistently. braun, fielder, gamel, can be our power hitters, we dont need cameron. this team needs pitching much more than it needs cameron. i say let him walk and use the money to sign a pitcher.

 

and lets give escobar and gamel a chance to bat in the majors. both of those guys were heralded as the future brewers at their respective positions and just because, in limited playing time, they havent produced to your expectations it doesnt mean they will not be good major leaguers. let them have a full year before you make any judgements. my batting order goes as follows:

 

1) Escobar, SS

2) Weeks, 2B

3) Braun, LF

4) Fielder, 1B

5) Hart, RF

6) Gamel, 3B

7) Rivera or Salome, C

8) any CF they sign or choose to play ( not jody Gerut)

9) the pitcher

[Invader3K]

I don't think anyone who has come out in favor of retaining Cameron has given how they would pay for any decent pitching (which this team desperately needs, as everyone knows). If he is going to cost around $10 million again next year, they will not be able to even trade for anyone of significant value, unless it's a gamble on a low ceiling prospect type.

[Flood Pants]

I don't think anyone who has come out in favor of retaining Cameron has given how they would pay for any decent pitching

Letting Looper and Kendall walk should do the trick. Or at the very least, resigning Kendal to a much lower salary (which he is worth after his dismal year). And if Hardy is traded, that will free up more salary. The money is there, it's just a matter of prioritizing how to spend it most effectively. Cameron should be on of those priorities .

[logan82]

Not wasting money on signing any of the very underwhelming free agent starting pitchers would be great. Sure you could get a guy or 2 for that money, but they are likely to be pretty similar to Looper or slightly better. In short, not much better than what we have. The best way to go would be to trade for a couple AAA guys.

[bklynbrewcrew]

We can keep Cameron and still get starting pitching by letting Looper and Kendall walk as well as possibly Bush. We also have good trade bait with Hardy, Hart, and McGehee so getting pitching shouldnt be so hard without letting Cameron go. What free agent pitching would we be getting with Camerons money anyway? Lackey is the only top option and we will almost surely be outbid for his services.

 

If Melvins plan is to let Cameon walk so we have extra money for Doug Davis and Washburn he is making a huge mistake. The last thing we should do is lose Cameron just so we can sign average or below average starters for big money.

[Never Outhustled]

If Melvins plan is to let Cameon walk so we have extra money for Doug Davis and Washburn he is making a huge mistake. The last thing we should do is lose Cameron just so we can sign average or below average starters for big money.

I agree completely. The worst part of signing FA pitchers like Washurn isn't just the fact that they'll produce less wins than Cameron next year, its that they'll require a multi-year deal. The probability that we can get Cameron on a 1 year deal makes re-signing him a no-brainer in my book.

[CheezWizHed]

I'll come back during spring training next year. Right now is the time for speculating as to who will be in the line-up (which is what this discussion has become), not the order in which they will bat.

[TooLiveBrew]

HE STRUCK OUT 156 TIMES!!!!!! we really dont need him. we need someone who can get on base consistently.

 

The Brewers should really make finding a top-10 CF in terms of OBP a priority. Good thing Cameron already fits that description.

 

2009 MLB CF ordered by OBP

[kramnoj]

It's going to be incredibly tough to replace Cameron with pitching for equal or better value. If you intentionally let Cameron go in order to sign a pitcher who is worse at his job than Cameron is at his, you are making the team worse. Pitching doesn't win games over a season, good teams do.

 

Letting Cameron go weakens the team for 150ish games a season. Getting a better pitcher only makes the team better for 30ish games. Even a replacement level pitcher will win a game 35-40% of the time.

 

Now it may be that Melvin plans on getting his players via trade, and it certainly is possible that Melvin can find value for that money, but he will be acquiring it at the cost of talent. But that may be a sacrifice that Melvin and Attanasio will make to try and build a WS contender for the next two years with Prince here.

[Ennder]

I don't think anyone who has come out in favor of retaining Cameron has given how they would pay for any decent pitching (which this team desperately needs, as everyone knows). If he is going to cost around $10 million again next year, they will not be able to even trade for anyone of significant value, unless it's a gamble on a low ceiling prospect type.

I do not believe that free agent pitching will significantly improve this team. I would rather they bring back the same starting 5 than spend large sums of money on FA pitching. Now I'd rather they took on a high risk, high reward type guy more than anything and trade for some AAA depth that lets us fill in for said player if he he gets hurt. Take a chance on a Sheets or a Bedard.

[kyle b]

i like the idea of a high-risk, high-reward pitcher. you can probably get one for a 1-2 year deal and they might not cost as much as the other pitchers on the market. Bedard was a good example that was brought up. as for cameron, i was never a fan when they signed him, and i still am not now. i just dont see the need for him on this team when it was our pitching that became the major downfall of this season. our rotation was not that great to begin with, and when there was injuries, the AAA Guys didnt help much. there is no depth and few upper level prospects to look up to for help. if changes arent made with the pitching staff, how can next year be any different than the previous? a factor in the mix could be how they view lorenzo cain. i know injuries have been a factor in his development, but if he looks good in the AFL, he might have a chance to see time in 2010 at CF. its something i would like to see but it probably wont happen

[TooLiveBrew]

I think it was twobrewers that made the good point in a Transactions thread that Cam is such an extreme love him or hate him player. I just don't understand it -- he was the third most-valuable position player, after Prince & Braun. I can't wrap my head around why some people view him as so replaceable -- and that's not intended as a shot at anyone.

[Flood Pants]

I can't wrap my head around why some people view him as so replaceable -- and that's not intended as a shot at anyone.

Cameron is viewed as replaceable because he has a low batting average and strikes out a lot. But he more than makes up for it in the important stats, on-base and slugging percentage. Thankfully, Melvin is smart enough to properly value these stats and ignore his "shortcomings." At least, we think so...

[kyle b]

when I say cameron is replaceable its because I think we will still be a good hitting team without him. there's no question that cameron's defense is very good, but I think we could put another player in CF and his defense would still be good. I was always a big fan of Tony Gwynn Jr. and I feel like he never got his chance with our team. if you look at his stats in san diego, he had a higher batting average and OBP, plus he is a left-handed bat. Yes, his Slugging percentage and defense is not as good as cameron's but he could have been useful at the top of our lineup. if he played just as much as cameron, he might have walked as much and struck out less, one thing that every team needs in a player at the top of its lineup. Im just saying that our team can be just as good without him. and that money can be spent elsewhere in much more needed spots on our team

[logan82]

Our spots of need at this time are CF, C and starting pitching. The available free agent catchers and starting pitchers are very unimpressive. Cameron looks like one of the best available CF free agents. Our money is probably best spent on Cameron. It would probably be best to pick up pitching through trades.

[greeg35]

Too bad we don't have a required reading FAQ with "this is what both sides will say" type of info for newbies about topics like Cameron, Gwynn, historical info on Branyan/Ginter, misspelling "Maddox" and such. Not saying that any one side is right or wrong...just so we don't have to have the same conversations again and again.

 

Half joking.

[Ennder]

I'd be fine with letting Cameron go if I thought there was a good viable option in the FA pool but I'm really not sure there is. I think if we let him go we'll just have a black hole in CF and having a mediocre defensive, no hit type like Gwynn isn't really the answer either. If you are going to downgrade the offense at CF you probably need to at least match the defense as well or the overall hit is just too big.

[wishicouldhit]

Considering I am the one that started this "anti-Cameron" movement, I think I should explain my rational thought process in more depth.

 

I like Cameron and I think he was a valuable part of the 08 & 09 brewers. He not only has a good defense but he also has a quality bat. The bottom line is that the brewers' top priority is to get 2 starting pitchers. No matter what. This argument will make more sense if you look at evidence.

 

Last year Doug Melvin gave the reason for bringing back Cameron because it would make up for our lack-luster rotation that can't get anyone out. Once again I like Cameron but as we learn from the 2009 experiment, you can't make the playoff with the worst pitching staff in baseball.

 

Also look at Peterson's comments from a recent jsonline blog "they won 80 games with a (rotation) ranked last in the league. If you can just get it to the middle of the pack, you're probably looking at 90 wins." If the brewers DON'T option Looper and push Sup to long relief/ back up starter they will have 2 hole, or as we should call them 2 "opportunities".

With our 2 opportunities we need to bring in a #2 and #3 starting pitcher. In my opinion this would bump their rotation to 10-15^th best in baseball. I am assuming that DM will try trade for one and sign a free agent probably not lackey (too much money), maybe Wolf or Hudson type. Another lesser choice would be to get a #3 like Washburn or Davis. A more risky and less likely option would be to take a fly at Duscherer or Sheets. Though this seems to be a popular choice to save some cap room, I doubt either of these 2 will sign less than 1 yr 7 mil. *Also don't suggest incentive rich deals because they never exist.

If I may paraphrase Melvin, we will have to give up offense to get pitching[/i]. Yes this means trade hardy and not l resigns Lopez. But it also implies that every move he makes this season will be pitching based. I am willing to bet that there will be no large financial move made this offseason until Doug acquires two starting pitchers.

Assuming the payroll doesn't extend above 85 million there is no way to get 2 SPs and resign Cameron for 8+ mil. It's not that I am anti Cameron because I am not, but just using logic and information that the members of the organization have talked about, it's unlikely that Cameron will be resigned.

 

[wishicouldhit]

Who is going to bat leadoff, Weeks or Escobar?

And to answer the first question posted about the line up, the leadoff spot easily goes weeks. I dont think Escobar will be ready to leadoff for at least 2 years. He just doesn't have the plate discipline or OBP. I should also add that I believe he will spend a good amount of time in the 8th or 9th hole.

[kyle b]

i understand weeks had some success batting leadoff this past year but his career OBP is still nothing great and he has a tendency to strike out. i understand that he has more power than escobar, then why shouldnt we move him down in the lineup? maybe to the 2nd spot? i think escobar has in the minor leagues been batting mostly leadoff, correct me if im wrong, so give him a shot. moving up through the minors people compared his game to Reyes, because he is electric defensively and offensively. does anyone know if reyes spent time in the lower half of the lineup with the Mets when he was just brought up? im really wondering cause i dont know.

[logan82]

i understand weeks had some success batting leadoff this past year but his career OBP is still nothing great and he has a tendency to strike out.

 

Wrong. Weeks career OBP is better than anybody on our team not named Fielder or Braun. A .351 OBP is pretty decent. I think you are focusing on the wrong things in regards to Weeks. Leadoff is where a hit vs a HBP vs a BB means less than any other spot in the lineup.

 

does anyone know if reyes spent time in the lower half of the lineup with the Mets when he was just brought up

 

Doesn't matter. Just because another organization made a mistake where they batted a player doesn't mean we should. Regardless of where Escobar has been batting throughout his career, he is likely the worst hitter our team other than the pitcher or catcher. Add in the fact that our manager will negate one of Escobar's biggest attributes and it makes little sense to bat him anywhere higher than 7.

[ninja33]

I think it was twobrewers that made the good point in a Transactions thread that Cam is such an extreme love him or hate him player. I just don't understand it -- he was the third most-valuable position player, after Prince & Braun. I can't wrap my head around why some people view him as so replaceable -- and that's not intended as a shot at anyone.

 

My biggest gripe with Cameron is he spent a good chunk of last year hitting in the 5 hole with braun and prince getting on base in front of him....and he just didn't drive in runs effectively. 16 of his 24 homeruns came with the bases empty (granted he had more plate appearances with the bases empty...but it is not a very significant number). His OBP is higher with men on, but his SLG is down over 100 points....which means he's either walking or singling, which is fine i guess (cant complain about a .360 OBP), but when you have holes like Hardy, Hart, and Kendall hitting behind you, as a #5 hitter you NEED to come up with some big extra base hits in that situation. There were 46 players that had 300+ plate appearances with runners on base. Mike Cameron was ranked 46th in RBIs among those players. You can talk about his high OPS, great defense, and WAR...and thats great. But watching him on a game to game basis, people remember him coming up to bat with men on and a chance to start/extend a rally and the two scenarios that happened most often were: 1) a single or a walk that brought up someone else who didn't come through; 2) a strikeout. That said, I want Cameron back. He is not necessarily a bad hitter with men on base, but he was last year...if his numbers return towards his norm (and they should) it will make a significant difference. I really would like to see him hit more often in the two hole and getting on base for braun and prince.

[clancyphile]

With the way things look, I'd go with the following:

2b: Escobar (assume Weeks' wrist isn't 100%)

ss: Hardy

lf: Braun

1b: Fielder

cf: Cameron

3b: Gamel/McGehee

rf: Hart

c: Rivera/Salome

 

Hopefully, JJ will have rebounded so that when Weeks is 100%, the Brewers can deal either him OR Escobar for some arms down the road.

 

It may be hoping for too much. The Brewers handled JJ about as well as Josh McDaniels handled the whole Cassel/Cutler thing in Denver this spring.

 

EDIT: Rickie took a LOT of time to recover from his wrist injury.

[adambr2]

Did Cameron say he would take less to stay in Milwaukee? I thought I remember something like that.

 

I wonder if we could get him closer to $8M than $10M. I know it doesn't seem like a huge difference, but every little bit is going to count this off-season, because we're going to be limited in our flexibility as it is.

[greeg35]

This has been debated a lot; but I still think he meant he would take less than he would make on the open market, not necessarily less than he makes right now. I think we got him at a discount last time because of the pending suspension situation. Maybe the open market is different enough now that we would get him for less; but he is coming off some pretty darn above average years.