Young Third Basemen the Brewers Should Target in a Trade

5 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

Right. But I don't think there are millions of dollars on the line. 

If anything, if he plays 3B at an elite level, I think his value would go up. 

Trea Turner moved to 2B(and played better there than he did at SS which as mentioned in his FA write up may assuage teams concerns about how he ages and loses his strongest physical attribute, his speed). 

Adames will hit FA at the same age roughly. I doubt team are going to say, "well, he was an elite defensive SS when he was 26, but can he do it at...29?"

Plus, he'd almost certainly get time at SS as I mentioned. 

Except it's not as simple as him moving over and playing 3B at an elite level when he hasn't played there since 2013. He very well could do it, but I just don't see the Brewers making the move. Urias isn't bad enough at 3B to force it. Our problem in the infield this year was on the right side...

1 minute ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Except it's not as simple as him moving over and playing 3B at an elite level when he hasn't played there since 2013. He very well could do it, but I just don't see the Brewers making the move. Urias isn't bad enough at 3B to force it. Our problem in the infield this year was on the right side...

I disagree. I think it is. 

1 minute ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Except it's not as simple as him moving over and playing 3B at an elite level when he hasn't played there since 2013. He very well could do it, but I just don't see the Brewers making the move. Urias isn't bad enough at 3B to force it. Our problem in the infield this year was on the right side...

I disagree. I think it is. 

Just now, UpandIn said:

I disagree. I think it is. 

 

Lol. Okay.

Just now, UpandIn said:

I disagree. I think it is. 

 

Lol. Okay.

Maybe it's been covered already, but isn't there a transaction rumors &proposals forum for these types of threads?

Maybe it's been covered already, but isn't there a transaction rumors &proposals forum for these types of threads?

26 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Lol. Okay.

....so you think it's unlikely that an elite SS with a strong arm would be able to play 3B? Is THAT the argument? Adames can't do it or is unlikely to do it? Because that's a very different argument. 

Yet that's generally what happens with SS's when they lose their range. They move to 3B. Unless they lack arm strength, then they move to 2B. 

He's played SS because there hasn't been a reason NOT to play him at SS. 

It's like arguing it's not as simple as moving a CFer(with a very strong arm...say a Garrett Mitchell) to RF because...he just might not have success there. You're doing the same thing...it's just a less difficult position. 

You're also making that argument while simultaneously arguing FOR Luis Urias to stay at 3B because he's "fine" there. Urias was a SS coming up. A SS who they said profiled more as a 2B. 

So where is the complication in moving Adames over to 3B with regard to his ABILITY to play the position?

Arm? Check
Range? Check
Hands? Check

Him playing 20 feet away is going to fundamentally change his ability to pick up a ball and throw it? Why? 

How many good defensive Shortstops have we seen move from SS to 3B and struggle? 

Or...as I suggested earlier, we COULD just agree to disagree. 
 

26 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Lol. Okay.

....so you think it's unlikely that an elite SS with a strong arm would be able to play 3B? Is THAT the argument? Adames can't do it or is unlikely to do it? Because that's a very different argument. 

Yet that's generally what happens with SS's when they lose their range. They move to 3B. Unless they lack arm strength, then they move to 2B. 

He's played SS because there hasn't been a reason NOT to play him at SS. 

It's like arguing it's not as simple as moving a CFer(with a very strong arm...say a Garrett Mitchell) to RF because...he just might not have success there. You're doing the same thing...it's just a less difficult position. 

You're also making that argument while simultaneously arguing FOR Luis Urias to stay at 3B because he's "fine" there. Urias was a SS coming up. A SS who they said profiled more as a 2B. 

So where is the complication in moving Adames over to 3B with regard to his ABILITY to play the position?

Arm? Check
Range? Check
Hands? Check

Him playing 20 feet away is going to fundamentally change his ability to pick up a ball and throw it? Why? 

How many good defensive Shortstops have we seen move from SS to 3B and struggle? 

Or...as I suggested earlier, we COULD just agree to disagree. 
 

25 minutes ago, SomewhereInTime said:

Maybe it's been covered already, but isn't there a transaction rumors &proposals forum for these types of threads?

It has been. The articles go into the main forum...

And the author is apparently going position by position looking at next years teams. 

25 minutes ago, SomewhereInTime said:

Maybe it's been covered already, but isn't there a transaction rumors &proposals forum for these types of threads?

It has been. The articles go into the main forum...

And the author is apparently going position by position looking at next years teams. 

46 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

....so you think it's unlikely that an elite SS with a strong arm would be able to play 3B? Is THAT the argument? Adames can't do it or is unlikely to do it? Because that's a very different argument. 

Yet that's generally what happens with SS's when they lose their range. They move to 3B. Unless they lack arm strength, then they move to 2B. 

He's played SS because there hasn't been a reason NOT to play him at SS. 

It's like arguing it's not as simple as moving a CFer(with a very strong arm...say a Garrett Mitchell) to RF because...he just might not have success there. You're doing the same thing...it's just a less difficult position. 

You're also making that argument while simultaneously arguing FOR Luis Urias to stay at 3B because he's "fine" there. Urias was a SS coming up. A SS who they said profiled more as a 2B. 

So where is the complication in moving Adames over to 3B with regard to his ABILITY to play the position?

Arm? Check
Range? Check
Hands? Check

Him playing 20 feet away is going to fundamentally change his ability to pick up a ball and throw it? Why? 

How many good defensive Shortstops have we seen move from SS to 3B and struggle? 

 

Or...as I suggested earlier, we COULD just agree to disagree. 
 

I literally said he very well COULD do it, BUT it's a little naive to think that you can just move him over to 3B when he hasn't played there in almost a decade, and he'll instantaneously be every bit as elite as he is at SS. I just think Turang at 2B and Adames at SS maximizes both their offensive and defensive abilities, while the upgrade from Urias at 2B vs. 3B is relatively marginal. And wouldn't you rather Adames focus on his offensive consistency, as opposed to having him learn a new position? If he can produce at his 2021 level on offense over the course of a full season with this year's defensive production at SS, you're looking at close to a 7 WAR player. Either way, there's no indication the Brewers have even considered moving Adames to 3B, so this debate is probably over nothing. 

46 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

....so you think it's unlikely that an elite SS with a strong arm would be able to play 3B? Is THAT the argument? Adames can't do it or is unlikely to do it? Because that's a very different argument. 

Yet that's generally what happens with SS's when they lose their range. They move to 3B. Unless they lack arm strength, then they move to 2B. 

He's played SS because there hasn't been a reason NOT to play him at SS. 

It's like arguing it's not as simple as moving a CFer(with a very strong arm...say a Garrett Mitchell) to RF because...he just might not have success there. You're doing the same thing...it's just a less difficult position. 

You're also making that argument while simultaneously arguing FOR Luis Urias to stay at 3B because he's "fine" there. Urias was a SS coming up. A SS who they said profiled more as a 2B. 

So where is the complication in moving Adames over to 3B with regard to his ABILITY to play the position?

Arm? Check
Range? Check
Hands? Check

Him playing 20 feet away is going to fundamentally change his ability to pick up a ball and throw it? Why? 

How many good defensive Shortstops have we seen move from SS to 3B and struggle? 

 

Or...as I suggested earlier, we COULD just agree to disagree. 
 

I literally said he very well COULD do it, BUT it's a little naive to think that you can just move him over to 3B when he hasn't played there in almost a decade, and he'll instantaneously be every bit as elite as he is at SS. I just think Turang at 2B and Adames at SS maximizes both their offensive and defensive abilities, while the upgrade from Urias at 2B vs. 3B is relatively marginal. And wouldn't you rather Adames focus on his offensive consistency, as opposed to having him learn a new position? If he can produce at his 2021 level on offense over the course of a full season with this year's defensive production at SS, you're looking at close to a 7 WAR player. Either way, there's no indication the Brewers have even considered moving Adames to 3B, so this debate is probably over nothing. 

59 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

Ok...but he barely has 3000 career innings at any position.

So we have what we have to go on. The Brewers saw him struggling at SS, they made a trade. 

We saw him play 2B last year, he was better there.

His prospect profile showed that he had a fringe arm.

I don't think you need to give him 3000 innings at 3B because you conclude he's likely a better fit for 3B. 

You have defensive metrics. DRS says he's elite at 3B in his career, UZR says he's average, and OAA says he's below average. 2 of the 3 available metrics rate him average or better. That suggests more time unless you find a better bat to play the position. Just because scouting reports say someone is an 'elite' defensive player doesn't mean they actually will be in the majors. Orlando Arcia was a top 10 prospect in baseball because scouts saw an elite defender, and that never materialized in the majors. He was average at best at SS.

59 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

Ok...but he barely has 3000 career innings at any position.

So we have what we have to go on. The Brewers saw him struggling at SS, they made a trade. 

We saw him play 2B last year, he was better there.

His prospect profile showed that he had a fringe arm.

I don't think you need to give him 3000 innings at 3B because you conclude he's likely a better fit for 3B. 

You have defensive metrics. DRS says he's elite at 3B in his career, UZR says he's average, and OAA says he's below average. 2 of the 3 available metrics rate him average or better. That suggests more time unless you find a better bat to play the position. Just because scouting reports say someone is an 'elite' defensive player doesn't mean they actually will be in the majors. Orlando Arcia was a top 10 prospect in baseball because scouts saw an elite defender, and that never materialized in the majors. He was average at best at SS.

30 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

I literally said he very well COULD do it, BUT it's a little naive to think that you can just move him over to 3B when he hasn't played there in almost a decade, and he'll instantaneously be every bit as elite as he is at SS. I just think Turang at 2B and Adames at SS maximizes both their offensive and defensive abilities, while the upgrade from Urias at 2B vs. 3B is relatively marginal. And wouldn't you rather Adames focus on his offensive consistency, as opposed to having him learn a new position? If he can produce at his 2021 level on offense over the course of a full season with this year's defensive production at SS, you're looking at close to a 7 WAR player. Either way, there's no indication the Brewers have even considered moving Adames to 3B, so this debate is probably over nothing. 

 

Ok...I get all of that. But what I DO need explained is if you're 2B, SS and 3B includes Adames, Urias and Turang...why should we care at ALL how their positions fit their offense? It quite literally makes no difference. 

With regard to Adames, I really don't think he'd be spending much time at all learning a new position. It's a simple transition. I actually think SS to 2B is quite a bit more difficult. When to cover on a SB, on a bunt, you're on the opposite side of the IF, the throwing angles change. I think asking him to play 1B(for example) would be FAR more difficult than 3B as a SS. 

But again, we clearly have a different opinion on that. 

I also really think Urias is better suited at 2B. He's quick, good range...not a great arm. But sure, lets say it's marginal. It may be.

30 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

I literally said he very well COULD do it, BUT it's a little naive to think that you can just move him over to 3B when he hasn't played there in almost a decade, and he'll instantaneously be every bit as elite as he is at SS. I just think Turang at 2B and Adames at SS maximizes both their offensive and defensive abilities, while the upgrade from Urias at 2B vs. 3B is relatively marginal. And wouldn't you rather Adames focus on his offensive consistency, as opposed to having him learn a new position? If he can produce at his 2021 level on offense over the course of a full season with this year's defensive production at SS, you're looking at close to a 7 WAR player. Either way, there's no indication the Brewers have even considered moving Adames to 3B, so this debate is probably over nothing. 

 

Ok...I get all of that. But what I DO need explained is if you're 2B, SS and 3B includes Adames, Urias and Turang...why should we care at ALL how their positions fit their offense? It quite literally makes no difference. 

With regard to Adames, I really don't think he'd be spending much time at all learning a new position. It's a simple transition. I actually think SS to 2B is quite a bit more difficult. When to cover on a SB, on a bunt, you're on the opposite side of the IF, the throwing angles change. I think asking him to play 1B(for example) would be FAR more difficult than 3B as a SS. 

But again, we clearly have a different opinion on that. 

I also really think Urias is better suited at 2B. He's quick, good range...not a great arm. But sure, lets say it's marginal. It may be.

6 hours ago, UpandIn said:

This is exactly the argument. Adames and Turang are going to be starting next year(most likely). 

Turang at 2B is a bit of a waste of his defensive ability. Adames at 3B, especially with the new rules regarding the shift...is not a waste defensively. 

 

No, it's not. 2B is right after SS on the position spectrum.

It's not like little league where you hide your worst defenders at 2B and RF.

6 hours ago, UpandIn said:

This is exactly the argument. Adames and Turang are going to be starting next year(most likely). 

Turang at 2B is a bit of a waste of his defensive ability. Adames at 3B, especially with the new rules regarding the shift...is not a waste defensively. 

 

No, it's not. 2B is right after SS on the position spectrum.

It's not like little league where you hide your worst defenders at 2B and RF.

40 minutes ago, Robocaller said:

No, it's not. 2B is right after SS on the position spectrum.

It's not like little league where you hide your worst defenders at 2B and RF.

 

I...I don't know what type of baseball you grew up playing, but we DEFINITELY did not "hide" our our defender at 2B. 

But fine, lets go with that. It's to the left of SS. Turang is an elite defensive SS. Ergo, it's a BIT of a waste. 

Also, again, do people remember when we moved TRAVIS SHAW to 2B and he performed well?

40 minutes ago, Robocaller said:

No, it's not. 2B is right after SS on the position spectrum.

It's not like little league where you hide your worst defenders at 2B and RF.

 

I...I don't know what type of baseball you grew up playing, but we DEFINITELY did not "hide" our our defender at 2B. 

But fine, lets go with that. It's to the left of SS. Turang is an elite defensive SS. Ergo, it's a BIT of a waste. 

Also, again, do people remember when we moved TRAVIS SHAW to 2B and he performed well?

Turang is not an elite defensive SS, BA has him graded at 50 field and 50 arm, while MLB pipeline has him at 60 field and 55 arm. My eye-test from watching him play approximately 10 games in-stadium is above average field with a slightly above average arm, so no Adames.

Keep Adames at SS, put Turang at 2B and have Urias at 3B. Turang’s range at 2B and better arm than Urias will payoff with the shift limitations, and should also payoff with more DP’s with Turang having a must faster release than Urias.

Turang is not an elite defensive SS, BA has him graded at 50 field and 50 arm, while MLB pipeline has him at 60 field and 55 arm. My eye-test from watching him play approximately 10 games in-stadium is above average field with a slightly above average arm, so no Adames.

Keep Adames at SS, put Turang at 2B and have Urias at 3B. Turang’s range at 2B and better arm than Urias will payoff with the shift limitations, and should also payoff with more DP’s with Turang having a must faster release than Urias.

I agree with the idea that Willy should be a great at 3rd defensively, but ultimately this all comes down to Turang. The organization should know well enough if he is going to handle 2B and transition to SS or just take over right away.  I think from Willy perspective SS would be better, he has a chance(s) to win a gold glove at SS but I doubt at 3rd he would win one over Arenado or Hayes. That being said I don't think Willy would be one to make a big stink if it was best for the team.

I agree with the idea that Willy should be a great at 3rd defensively, but ultimately this all comes down to Turang. The organization should know well enough if he is going to handle 2B and transition to SS or just take over right away.  I think from Willy perspective SS would be better, he has a chance(s) to win a gold glove at SS but I doubt at 3rd he would win one over Arenado or Hayes. That being said I don't think Willy would be one to make a big stink if it was best for the team.