The Brewers Failed to Develop Mario Feliciano & It's a Recurring Problem

I haven't looked at other teams but I think the same can be said about them and developing catchers. 

Catching is very difficult to produce and it is probably the most difficult because of how difficult the position is.  A good catcher who can both hit and play defense is like finding a HOF QB in the NFL. 

The Brewers since 2012 have the 6th highest wRC+, 5th highest in oWAR, 1st in dWAR and 2nd in WAR.  I would say that is pretty good.  Notice a team that has a HOF bound catcher is only in one of these lists. 

While the development of the players haven't been all that great the results the Brewers have been getting at catcher have been phenomenal since 2012. 

27 minutes ago, CheezWizHed said:

 

Also, you should fix that spelling error in the article. It should be "Woah SOLVDD" 

Yeah, I was wondering who this Palmisano guy was, then I realized he meant Lou Palsmo.

Of the post-Lucroy failed catching prospects, Feliciano is the only one who doesn’t fall into one of two categories: guys whose bats failed to progress or guys no one expected to stick at catcher. The former happens at every position. The latter is a bit of hubris from an organization proud of its ability to mold catchers defensively.

Feliciano was really the first one who wasn’t looked at as an extreme long shot to stick at catcher who didn’t develop defensively.

The case against having Quero higher I guess might be that because catchers have so much to focus on, their bats might develop less often. On the other hand, if the reports on Quero’s defense and intangibles are accurate, even a little improvement offensively probably puts him in the Maldonado level. Regardless, however, what happened with Feliciano has no bearing on my opinion on Quero, both because he is an outlier and because Feliciano’s problem isn’t an issue for Quero.

Just now, CheeseheadInQC said:

Of the post-Lucroy failed catching prospects, Feliciano is the only one who doesn’t fall into one of two categories: guys whose bats failed to progress or guys no one expected to stick at catcher. The former happens at every position. The latter is a bit of hubris from an organization proud of its ability to mold catchers defensively.

Feliciano was really the first one who wasn’t looked at as an extreme long shot to stick at catcher who didn’t develop defensively.

Feliciano's defense has just not developed at all.  In the off season he has trained with the anointed one Yadier Molina.  Even with him training with Yadier Molina his defense hasn't improved.  I think he just ran out of time with the Brewers as it doesn't look like what they have been trying to do nor what he has been doing in the off season has helped him become better defensively.  He may just need a reset and going to the Tigers may be that reset he needs.  His bat is good enough at catcher really you only need to be a 85-90 wRC+ catcher to provide value with good to average defense. 

I really liked Feliciano but it seems like the Brewers wanted to move on and let him play somewhere else.

Looking through that list, it seems to me the Brewers have probably done as well as any other team in the league. The prospects in that list with the highest draft capital were Lucroy, Coulter (whom most teams NEVER considered to be a catcher), and Feliciano. It's like saying the Brewers have "failed" to develop first basemen, because Fielder was the only one to pan out.

I tend to agree that, "there's no such thing as a catching prospect."

We really haven't put a ton of resources/draft position into catcher. It seems like we draft a ton of catchers in the 4th-10th range. The success rates in those rounds aren't great add in a more difficult position and I expect less. I think we did fail miserably with Jacob Nottingham, he seemed to have a lot of upward momentum and was trash when we got him. We seemed to be doing well with Mario but the lost 2020 season wrecked his momentum.

When you have a catching prospect who is well regarded enough that he needs to be protected from the rule 5 draft, then you have a tricky timeline.  It's not uncommon for a catcher to take until his late 20s to develop. This is a problem for every team, but it means there are a lot of semi developed guys available to mold with big league level coaching.

13 hours ago, sveumrules said:

Another thing to consider is that developing catchers is literally the hardest thing to do, so every team's top prospect lists are likely similar rife with "failures".

Yeah, it's impossible to know if we're doing badly without knowing how other teams are doing. Based on the stats posted elsewhere, few teams have been able to identify and develop catching prospects.

And a few of the guys mentioned weren't expected to stay at C even when they were drafted. Then one promising prospect had severe mental health issues. And others were only rated highly because our farm teams were wretched at the time.

I was once intrigued by Salome and Palmisano so I share your pain.  But I think Quero has a good shot at being the next guy.  By everything I’ve ever heard about him, he’s got a great makeup.  There is a hit tool and defense plus he’s young.  Every reason to be very optimistic about him as he becomes a consensus top 5 prospect for the Brewers.  

On 12/23/2022 at 2:56 PM, sveumrules said:

There is so much turnover in the scouting/development department (the Brewers were literally among the worst in all of MLB before they started overhauling things once Mark A bought the team and that process continued further once Stearns & company got here) that I'm not sure how big of a developmental indictment some of these guys actually are.

Another thing to consider is that developing catchers is literally the hardest thing to do, so every team's top prospect lists are likely similar rife with "failures".

The most informative thing I think with regards to future expectations would be that despite whatever developmental shortcoming they may have had, since Stearns and company have gotten here Brewers catchers rank 3rd in WAR among all MLB clubs.  

Outside of the one year of Yaz, most of that WAR came from players that came up through the system (Lucroy/Maldonado) or were targeted by Stearns & company in trade (Pina/Narvaez).

Between Contreras on the MLB side and Quero in the pipeline, I think the catching situation is probably the best its been organizationally since Lucroy/Maldonado were coming up.

True. That said, allow me to mention a couple other names from my piece on the underrated prospects:

https://brewerfanatic.com/news-rumors/brewers-minor-league/overlooked-brewers-prospects-catcher-first-base-designated-hitter-r627/?do=getNewComment&d=1&id=627

Darrien Miller, who seems to be doing pretty good down under. Lots of doubles, hitting .280, and the OBP skills are there. Might be a good complement to Contreras/Quero starting in 2024-2025.

Edgardo Ordonez also looks to be a solid option as well. 

On 12/24/2022 at 6:01 AM, Austin Tatious said:

I was once intrigued by Salome and Palmisano so I share your pain.  But I think Quero has a good shot at being the next guy.  By everything I’ve ever heard about him, he’s got a great makeup.  There is a hit tool and defense plus he’s young.  Every reason to be very optimistic about him as he becomes a consensus top 5 prospect for the Brewers.  

Agree with all of this. When I heard Salome was having "issues" & wanted to move to the OF it really bummed me out. Guy had a cannon. And I absolutely loved Palmisano.

Way too early to be totally sold on Quero, but guilty as charged.

On 12/23/2022 at 9:14 PM, DoubleSwitch said:

When you have a catching prospect who is well regarded enough that he needs to be protected from the rule 5 draft, then you have a tricky timeline.  It's not uncommon for a catcher to take until his late 20s to develop. This is a problem for every team, but it means there are a lot of semi developed guys available to mold with big league level coaching.

It's pretty clear the pandemic warped Feliciano's development, and to be frank, I'm of the opinion that maybe the Rule 5 draft should be discarded or only apply to players over a certain age.

7 hours ago, clancyphile said:

to be frank, I'm of the opinion that maybe the Rule 5 draft should be discarded or only apply to players over a certain age.

It certainly devalues guys you might sign at age 16, because they might need to be put on the 40-man roster long before they are ready. And it puts a premium on college players, who will have established themselves (or not) by the time they need to be put on the 40-man.

12 minutes ago, Robocaller said:

It certainly devalues guys you might sign at age 16, because they might need to be put on the 40-man roster long before they are ready. And it puts a premium on college players, who will have established themselves (or not) by the time they need to be put on the 40-man.

It should be six years if they were under 18, four if 18-20, and three for 21 and over.

And extend minor-league free agency to eight years.

1 minute ago, Robocaller said:

It certainly devalues guys you might sign at age 16, because they might need to be put on the 40-man roster long before they are ready. And it puts a premium on college players, who will have established themselves (or not) by the time they need to be put on the 40-man.

After next year it gets a bit better at least (Quero is eligible next year, but Chourio isn’t until two after that).

9 minutes ago, CheeseheadInQC said:

After next year it gets a bit better at least (Quero is eligible next year, but Chourio isn’t until two after that).

If Chourio isn't on the 40-man in 2 years, it means his development has stalled.

7 minutes ago, Robocaller said:

If Chourio isn't on the 40-man in 2 years, it means his development has stalled.

True, I just used him as the biggest name in that class. Substitute Mendez, Guilarte, Areinamo, Barrios, Castillo or Aquino if you wish.

Back to Quero, it is tough to find a good comp for him. From 2009 through the present, 12 catchers saw a decent chunk of time in High-A during their age 19 season. Two were not really considered among their organization's top prospects (Santiago Chavez and Francisco Pena), three are currently among their organization's top prospects (Francisco Alvarez, Ivan Herrera and Quero), four either switched positions or were derailed by defense (Feliciano, Jesus Montero, Wil Myers and Tommy Joseph), and two were bat-first prospects who developed enough to stick behind the plate (Gary Sanchez, Keibert Ruiz). Christian Betancourt might be the best comp among the group defensively, but he had maturity questions that you never really hear about Quero.

Catchers with plus defense and intangibles have a way of sticking around. It is why Martin Maldonado is still going strong, having played 100 games in each non-pandemic season since leaving the Brewers, despite struggling at times to stay above the Mendoza line and posting a career OPS that I believe is on the wrong side of .650. It is why former Brewers prospect Max McDowell was invited to the Yankees alternate site during 2020 and recently signed as a minor league free agent despite a fairly poor offensive season at AA last year.

If he develops at all offensively, and the scouting reports on his defense and intangibles are accurate, it is tough to see him not having a decent length big league career.