Is Brandon Woodruff a Brewers Trade Candidate?

3 hours ago, SF70 said:

But that’s the type of return this team would likely get if they shopped Burnes this offseason, especially from a team like the Dodgers who would have a leg-up with extending Burnes, imo.

This offseason is the sweet-spot for trading Burnes and maximizing return. Higher probability for the trading team to extend him 2 years out from FA vs 1.

Last year, at 3 years control, how many teams would have had the prospect capital to trade for Burnes? or even if they did, would have given that much up?

This team needs to acquire big-league ready starting pitching prospects to replace Burnes, Woody and Lauer before OD/‘25. 

Waiting another year puts injury and or regression into the equation. Even with all things being equal, the return shrinks to less than half due to Burnes higher ‘23 salary.

For all of these reasons I believe the team trades Burnes this offseason.

Burnes has one of the higher trade values in the game. Definitely the highest for a player with 2 years of control remaining. Any trade will do a significant amount of damage to a team's top 10 prospect list. There's plenty of reason to be skeptical that a team will ultimately meet that asking price. The Brewers certainly aren't going to rush to trade him just because he only has 2 years of control remaining, when his presence at the top of the rotation is the single biggest reason why the Brewers have a chance to make it back to the postseason. They will want every bit of what he's worth to even consider parting with him. 

I agree with TPlush that we also need to think about this from a team image/marketing standpoint. The front office got absolutely excoriated by the fanbase and the media for the Hader trade. Do we think that Arnold and Attanasio are now going to go ahead the very next offseason and trade the most dominant starting pitcher in franchise history and incite an even greater backlash, particularly during a time when attendance has been relatively lackluster? 

A Burnes trade may make perfect sense on paper, but, for the aforementioned reasons, the actual chances of it happening are probably less than 50%. 

48 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Burnes has one of the higher trade values in the game. Definitely the highest for a player with 2 years of control remaining. Any trade will do a significant amount of damage to a team's top 10 prospect list. There's plenty of reason to be skeptical that a team will ultimately meet that asking price. The Brewers certainly aren't going to rush to trade him just because he only has 2 years of control remaining, when his presence at the top of the rotation is the single biggest reason why the Brewers have a chance to make it back to the postseason. They will want every bit of what he's worth to even consider parting with him. 

I agree with TPlush that we also need to think about this from a team image/marketing standpoint. The front office got absolutely excoriated by the fanbase and the media for the Hader trade. Do we think that Arnold and Attanasio are now going to go ahead the very next offseason and trade the most dominant starting pitcher in franchise history and incite an even greater backlash, particularly during a time when attendance has been relatively lackluster? 

A Burnes trade may make perfect sense on paper, but, for the aforementioned reasons, the actual chances of it happening are probably less than 50%. 

Paper is all that should matter. Arnold & co need to do what’s best for the organization with absolutely zero regard for potential fan reaction. Attanasio is no dummy, he’s smart enough to want what’s best for the team.

A top 3 SP in the game shopped to the highest bidder will return the talent needed to not just extend the “bites at the apple” contention strategy, but improve the overall talent level of this organization beyond anything we’d get by holding Burnes for another year.

Realistically Burnes returns — 1 top 25, 1 top 50, 1 top 100. With at least 2 of them big-league ready. That’s a fair return. That’s also a return more valuable to this team at this time than keeping Burnes for this coming season.

48 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Burnes has one of the higher trade values in the game. Definitely the highest for a player with 2 years of control remaining. Any trade will do a significant amount of damage to a team's top 10 prospect list. There's plenty of reason to be skeptical that a team will ultimately meet that asking price. The Brewers certainly aren't going to rush to trade him just because he only has 2 years of control remaining, when his presence at the top of the rotation is the single biggest reason why the Brewers have a chance to make it back to the postseason. They will want every bit of what he's worth to even consider parting with him. 

I agree with TPlush that we also need to think about this from a team image/marketing standpoint. The front office got absolutely excoriated by the fanbase and the media for the Hader trade. Do we think that Arnold and Attanasio are now going to go ahead the very next offseason and trade the most dominant starting pitcher in franchise history and incite an even greater backlash, particularly during a time when attendance has been relatively lackluster? 

A Burnes trade may make perfect sense on paper, but, for the aforementioned reasons, the actual chances of it happening are probably less than 50%. 

Paper is all that should matter. Arnold & co need to do what’s best for the organization with absolutely zero regard for potential fan reaction. Attanasio is no dummy, he’s smart enough to want what’s best for the team.

A top 3 SP in the game shopped to the highest bidder will return the talent needed to not just extend the “bites at the apple” contention strategy, but improve the overall talent level of this organization beyond anything we’d get by holding Burnes for another year.

Realistically Burnes returns — 1 top 25, 1 top 50, 1 top 100. With at least 2 of them big-league ready. That’s a fair return. That’s also a return more valuable to this team at this time than keeping Burnes for this coming season.

2 minutes ago, SF70 said:

Paper is all that should matter. Arnold & co need to do what’s best for the organization with absolutely zero regard for potential fan reaction. Attanasio is no dummy, he’s smart enough to want what’s best for the team.

A top 3 SP in the game shopped to the highest bidder will return the talent needed to not just extend the “bites at the apple” contention strategy, but improve the overall talent level of this organization beyond anything we’d get by holding Burnes for another year.

Realistically Burnes returns — 1 top 25, 1 top 50, 1 top 100. With at least 2 of them big-league ready. That’s a fair return. That’s also a return more valuable to this team at this time than keeping Burnes for this coming season.

They want to compete this season, too. Without Burnes, that task becomes a heck of a lot more difficult. Above all else, Attanasio cares about making money. Trading your two best pitchers over such a short period of time amidst increasingly lackluster attendance and fan discontent will not help with that. 

Paper may be all that should matter, but the real world is not played out on paper. 

2 minutes ago, SF70 said:

Paper is all that should matter. Arnold & co need to do what’s best for the organization with absolutely zero regard for potential fan reaction. Attanasio is no dummy, he’s smart enough to want what’s best for the team.

A top 3 SP in the game shopped to the highest bidder will return the talent needed to not just extend the “bites at the apple” contention strategy, but improve the overall talent level of this organization beyond anything we’d get by holding Burnes for another year.

Realistically Burnes returns — 1 top 25, 1 top 50, 1 top 100. With at least 2 of them big-league ready. That’s a fair return. That’s also a return more valuable to this team at this time than keeping Burnes for this coming season.

They want to compete this season, too. Without Burnes, that task becomes a heck of a lot more difficult. Above all else, Attanasio cares about making money. Trading your two best pitchers over such a short period of time amidst increasingly lackluster attendance and fan discontent will not help with that. 

Paper may be all that should matter, but the real world is not played out on paper. 

2 hours ago, SF70 said:

Paper is all that should matter. Arnold & co need to do what’s best for the organization with absolutely zero regard for potential fan reaction. 

A top 3 SP in the game shopped to the highest bidder will return the talent needed to not just extend the “bites at the apple” contention strategy, but improve the overall talent level of this organization beyond anything we’d get by holding Burnes for another year.

Realistically Burnes returns — 1 top 25, 1 top 50, 1 top 100. With at least 2 of them big-league ready. That’s a fair return. That’s also a return more valuable to this team at this time than keeping Burnes for this coming season.

Those statements are inherently at odds. They should have absolutely "zero regard" for fan reaction?

Brewers fans spending more per capita than ANY other fan base in MLB is one of the things that allows the Brewers in the miniscule market they've got to spend as much as they do(cheap as you may believe Attnasio to believe, look at the Pirates, the Os, the Guardians, the As...all the other teams in similar markets), that is absolutely part of what's best for this organization. Look at the Guardians. I remember how they had this ridiculous sellout record goin...it was like 588 days(I don't remember, it's a long list). They've really hurt their relationship with their fan base. Some of that may just be fans complacent with 90 win seasons and some of the luster having worn off on that, but they also don't develop connections with the players as they once did. 
I'm not saying you don't trade Burnes and Woodruff, but maintaining a good relationship with your fanbase is absolutely relevant and important. 

7 hours ago, SF70 said:

But that’s the type of return this team would likely get if they shopped Burnes this offseason, especially from a team like the Dodgers who would have a leg-up with extending Burnes, imo.

This offseason is the sweet-spot for trading Burnes and maximizing return. Higher probability for the trading team to extend him 2 years out from FA vs 1.

I'm talking about deals like Grayson Rodriguez and Jackson Holliday or Bobby Miller, Vargas, Stone and Pepiot or Cartaya.  

I'm not going after anyone's trade suggestions because I've suggested pretty much that Dodgers trade(it's actually my favorite in theory, a 1B prospect and then 3 power righties who are MLB ready. One who could plug into the rotation and then 2 more who could also slide into the rotation or who could come in and throw 2-3-4 innings out of the pen. 

I just think we're are probably expecting a little bit too much back. Sure, we're in the sweet spot in theory. Though maybe you run into a team like Seattle that's desperate for a playoff run for their fanbase(Baltimore) or the LAA start out, they get hot this year and they're a pitcher away from contending...and they're willing to pay more to get that ace. 

I also think we SHOULD expect a kings ransom because Burnes is so valuable. 

3 hours ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Burnes has one of the higher trade values in the game. Definitely the highest for a player with 2 years of control remaining.

Juan Soto says hi! 
I'm thinking he slipped your mind...or maybe you disagree? Not really important as the larger point is that Burnes has immense value. 

7 hours ago, SF70 said:

Waiting another year puts injury and or regression into the equation. Even with all things being equal, the return shrinks to less than half due to Burnes higher ‘23 salary.

Walker Buehler is an example of this if you throw in injury with regression. Buehler was in a class right with Burnes just last year. 6.6 WAR vs 5.6. Now I saw someone propose a trade of Adames and Burnes that included Buehler and someone said there was "no point" in adding Buehler. While I don't agree with that, it shows how quickly a player can lose value.

That said, if Burnes stays healthy, I'm not sure you can quantify how much value he loses. I don't know if it's 50% because he's got 50% less service time....why? Because...as pointed out, the game isn't played on paper. Teams get desperate. Again, just the two teams I mentioned...or maybe the Twins who've been getting more and more aggressive. The Jays might be a team that's got this dominant lineup but lacking an ace. 

The point I'm making is that I understand both sides of this. Part of me wants to trade Burnes now and I'd be more than happy to get back....4 pitchers with elite stuff. Try and identify the next Steven Strider(Which may be someone like Bobby Miller) and a couple other elite arms. But;

2 hours ago, SF70 said:

That’s also a return more valuable to this team at this time than keeping Burnes for this coming season.

This isn't true if it gets the Brewer to the World Series or wins them a World Series. I don't think there is a significant difference in trade value from trading him this winter vs this deadline, so maybe see how things play out. Lets say...hypothetically, Frelick/Turang looks like a .280.360/.420 type hitter with elite defense, maybe Yelich comes back and he gets hot and spends the off-seasons working on his core, his back, he gets a little bit of that bat speed back and he hads some loft to the ball again(his exit velo(90%) and hard hit rate(98%) have both been exceptional, just mostly on the ground). 

Maybe Uribe becomes a Emanuel Clase, Peralta gets back to his 2021 status, it clicks for Ashby and HE becomes a legitimate #2/3 pitcher. Lauer throws 180IP and does so at a high level, Houser stays healthy. Adames doesn't have the abnormally low BABIP and he retains the power without the fluke, career low BA/OBP. 

I don't disagree with anyone in this thread and this is a case where no matter what we do(unlike with the Packers today) I'll understand whatever they move and the rationale for it. But it's just a bit more complicated and nuanced, and we should look at it from other teams perspectives. 

If you're Texas, do you really want to give up Jung, Carter, Lieter and Foscue?

It's gonna be a very difficult decision and you're gonna piss of fans and you're going take a risk either way. 

Lets just extend him and render the whole discussion as moot!

(This is like half blue). 

2 hours ago, SF70 said:

Paper is all that should matter. Arnold & co need to do what’s best for the organization with absolutely zero regard for potential fan reaction. 

A top 3 SP in the game shopped to the highest bidder will return the talent needed to not just extend the “bites at the apple” contention strategy, but improve the overall talent level of this organization beyond anything we’d get by holding Burnes for another year.

Realistically Burnes returns — 1 top 25, 1 top 50, 1 top 100. With at least 2 of them big-league ready. That’s a fair return. That’s also a return more valuable to this team at this time than keeping Burnes for this coming season.

Those statements are inherently at odds. They should have absolutely "zero regard" for fan reaction?

Brewers fans spending more per capita than ANY other fan base in MLB is one of the things that allows the Brewers in the miniscule market they've got to spend as much as they do(cheap as you may believe Attnasio to believe, look at the Pirates, the Os, the Guardians, the As...all the other teams in similar markets), that is absolutely part of what's best for this organization. Look at the Guardians. I remember how they had this ridiculous sellout record goin...it was like 588 days(I don't remember, it's a long list). They've really hurt their relationship with their fan base. Some of that may just be fans complacent with 90 win seasons and some of the luster having worn off on that, but they also don't develop connections with the players as they once did. 
I'm not saying you don't trade Burnes and Woodruff, but maintaining a good relationship with your fanbase is absolutely relevant and important. 

7 hours ago, SF70 said:

But that’s the type of return this team would likely get if they shopped Burnes this offseason, especially from a team like the Dodgers who would have a leg-up with extending Burnes, imo.

This offseason is the sweet-spot for trading Burnes and maximizing return. Higher probability for the trading team to extend him 2 years out from FA vs 1.

I'm talking about deals like Grayson Rodriguez and Jackson Holliday or Bobby Miller, Vargas, Stone and Pepiot or Cartaya.  

I'm not going after anyone's trade suggestions because I've suggested pretty much that Dodgers trade(it's actually my favorite in theory, a 1B prospect and then 3 power righties who are MLB ready. One who could plug into the rotation and then 2 more who could also slide into the rotation or who could come in and throw 2-3-4 innings out of the pen. 

I just think we're are probably expecting a little bit too much back. Sure, we're in the sweet spot in theory. Though maybe you run into a team like Seattle that's desperate for a playoff run for their fanbase(Baltimore) or the LAA start out, they get hot this year and they're a pitcher away from contending...and they're willing to pay more to get that ace. 

I also think we SHOULD expect a kings ransom because Burnes is so valuable. 

3 hours ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Burnes has one of the higher trade values in the game. Definitely the highest for a player with 2 years of control remaining.

Juan Soto says hi! 
I'm thinking he slipped your mind...or maybe you disagree? Not really important as the larger point is that Burnes has immense value. 

7 hours ago, SF70 said:

Waiting another year puts injury and or regression into the equation. Even with all things being equal, the return shrinks to less than half due to Burnes higher ‘23 salary.

Walker Buehler is an example of this if you throw in injury with regression. Buehler was in a class right with Burnes just last year. 6.6 WAR vs 5.6. Now I saw someone propose a trade of Adames and Burnes that included Buehler and someone said there was "no point" in adding Buehler. While I don't agree with that, it shows how quickly a player can lose value.

That said, if Burnes stays healthy, I'm not sure you can quantify how much value he loses. I don't know if it's 50% because he's got 50% less service time....why? Because...as pointed out, the game isn't played on paper. Teams get desperate. Again, just the two teams I mentioned...or maybe the Twins who've been getting more and more aggressive. The Jays might be a team that's got this dominant lineup but lacking an ace. 

The point I'm making is that I understand both sides of this. Part of me wants to trade Burnes now and I'd be more than happy to get back....4 pitchers with elite stuff. Try and identify the next Steven Strider(Which may be someone like Bobby Miller) and a couple other elite arms. But;

2 hours ago, SF70 said:

That’s also a return more valuable to this team at this time than keeping Burnes for this coming season.

This isn't true if it gets the Brewer to the World Series or wins them a World Series. I don't think there is a significant difference in trade value from trading him this winter vs this deadline, so maybe see how things play out. Lets say...hypothetically, Frelick/Turang looks like a .280.360/.420 type hitter with elite defense, maybe Yelich comes back and he gets hot and spends the off-seasons working on his core, his back, he gets a little bit of that bat speed back and he hads some loft to the ball again(his exit velo(90%) and hard hit rate(98%) have both been exceptional, just mostly on the ground). 

Maybe Uribe becomes a Emanuel Clase, Peralta gets back to his 2021 status, it clicks for Ashby and HE becomes a legitimate #2/3 pitcher. Lauer throws 180IP and does so at a high level, Houser stays healthy. Adames doesn't have the abnormally low BABIP and he retains the power without the fluke, career low BA/OBP. 

I don't disagree with anyone in this thread and this is a case where no matter what we do(unlike with the Packers today) I'll understand whatever they move and the rationale for it. But it's just a bit more complicated and nuanced, and we should look at it from other teams perspectives. 

If you're Texas, do you really want to give up Jung, Carter, Lieter and Foscue?

It's gonna be a very difficult decision and you're gonna piss of fans and you're going take a risk either way. 

Lets just extend him and render the whole discussion as moot!

(This is like half blue). 

3 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

Those statements are inherently at odds. They should have absolutely "zero regard" for fan reaction?

Brewers fans spending more per capita than ANY other fan base in MLB is one of the things that allows the Brewers in the miniscule market they've got, that is absolutely part of what's best for this organization. Look at the Guardians. I remember how they had this ridiculous sellout record goin...it was like 588 days(I don't remember, it's a long list). 
I'm not saying you don't trade Burnes and Woodruff, but maintaining a good relationship with your fanbase is absolutely relevant and important. 

 

I'm talking about deals like Grayson Rodriguez and Jackson Holliday or Bobby Miller, Vargas, Stone and Pepiot or Cartaya.  

I'm not going after anyone's trade suggestions because I've suggested pretty much that Dodgers trade(it's actually my favorite in theory, a 1B prospect and then 3 power righties who are MLB ready. One who could plug into the rotation and then 2 more who could also slide into the rotation or who could come in and throw 2-3-4 innings out of the pen. 

I just think we're are probably expecting a little bit too much back. Sure, we're in the sweet spot in theory. Though maybe you run into a team like Seattle that's desperate for a playoff run for their fanbase(Baltimore) or the LAA start out, they get hot this year and they're a pitcher away from contending...and they're willing to pay more to get that ace. 

I also think we SHOULD expect a kings ransom because Burnes is so valuable. 

Juan Soto says hi! 
I'm thinking he slipped your mind...or maybe you disagree? Not really important as the larger point is that Burnes has immense value. 

Walker Buehler is an example of this if you throw in injury with regression. Buehler was in a class right with Burnes just last year. 6.6 WAR vs 5.6. Now I saw someone propose a trade of Adames and Burnes that included Buehler and someone said there was "no point" in adding Buehler. While I don't agree with that, it shows how quickly a player can lose value.

That said, if Burnes stays healthy, I'm not sure you can quantify how much value he loses. I don't know if it's 50% because he's got 50% less service time....why? Because...as pointed out, the game isn't played on paper. Teams get desperate. Again, just the two teams I mentioned...or maybe the Twins who've been getting more and more aggressive. The Jays might be a team that's got this dominant lineup but lacking an ace. 

 

The point I'm making is that I understand both sides of this. Part of me wants to trade Burnes now and I'd be more than happy to get back....4 pitchers with elite stuff. Try and identify the next Steven Strider(Which may be someone like Bobby Miller) and a couple other elite arms. But;

This isn't true if it gets the Brewer to the World Series or wins them a World Series. I don't think there is a significant difference in trade value from trading him this winter vs this deadline, so maybe see how things play out. Lets say...hypothetically, Frelick/Turang looks like a .280.360/.420 type hitter with elite defense, maybe Yelich comes back and he gets hot and spends the off-seasons working on his core, his back, he gets a little bit of that bat speed back and he hads some loft to the ball again(his exit velo(90%) and hard hit rate(98%) have both been exceptional, just mostly on the ground). 

Maybe Uribe becomes a Emanuel Clase, Peralta gets back to his 2021 status, it clicks for Ashby and HE becomes a legitimate #2/3 pitcher. Lauer throws 180IP and does so at a high level, Houser stays healthy. Adames doesn't have the abnormally low BABIP and he retains the power without the fluke, career low BA/OBP. 

I don't disagree with anyone in this thread and this is a case where no matter what we do(unlike with the Packers today) I'll understand whatever they move and the rationale for it. But it's just a bit more complicated and nuanced, and we should look at it from other teams perspectives. 

If you're Texas, do you really want to give up Jung, Carter, Lieter and Foscue?

 

It's gonna be a very difficult decision and you're gonna piss of fans and you're going take a risk either way. 

 

Lets just extend him and render the whole discussion as moot!

(This is like half blue). 

Yeah. Sorry Juan Soto slipped my mind lol

3 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

Those statements are inherently at odds. They should have absolutely "zero regard" for fan reaction?

Brewers fans spending more per capita than ANY other fan base in MLB is one of the things that allows the Brewers in the miniscule market they've got, that is absolutely part of what's best for this organization. Look at the Guardians. I remember how they had this ridiculous sellout record goin...it was like 588 days(I don't remember, it's a long list). 
I'm not saying you don't trade Burnes and Woodruff, but maintaining a good relationship with your fanbase is absolutely relevant and important. 

 

I'm talking about deals like Grayson Rodriguez and Jackson Holliday or Bobby Miller, Vargas, Stone and Pepiot or Cartaya.  

I'm not going after anyone's trade suggestions because I've suggested pretty much that Dodgers trade(it's actually my favorite in theory, a 1B prospect and then 3 power righties who are MLB ready. One who could plug into the rotation and then 2 more who could also slide into the rotation or who could come in and throw 2-3-4 innings out of the pen. 

I just think we're are probably expecting a little bit too much back. Sure, we're in the sweet spot in theory. Though maybe you run into a team like Seattle that's desperate for a playoff run for their fanbase(Baltimore) or the LAA start out, they get hot this year and they're a pitcher away from contending...and they're willing to pay more to get that ace. 

I also think we SHOULD expect a kings ransom because Burnes is so valuable. 

Juan Soto says hi! 
I'm thinking he slipped your mind...or maybe you disagree? Not really important as the larger point is that Burnes has immense value. 

Walker Buehler is an example of this if you throw in injury with regression. Buehler was in a class right with Burnes just last year. 6.6 WAR vs 5.6. Now I saw someone propose a trade of Adames and Burnes that included Buehler and someone said there was "no point" in adding Buehler. While I don't agree with that, it shows how quickly a player can lose value.

That said, if Burnes stays healthy, I'm not sure you can quantify how much value he loses. I don't know if it's 50% because he's got 50% less service time....why? Because...as pointed out, the game isn't played on paper. Teams get desperate. Again, just the two teams I mentioned...or maybe the Twins who've been getting more and more aggressive. The Jays might be a team that's got this dominant lineup but lacking an ace. 

 

The point I'm making is that I understand both sides of this. Part of me wants to trade Burnes now and I'd be more than happy to get back....4 pitchers with elite stuff. Try and identify the next Steven Strider(Which may be someone like Bobby Miller) and a couple other elite arms. But;

This isn't true if it gets the Brewer to the World Series or wins them a World Series. I don't think there is a significant difference in trade value from trading him this winter vs this deadline, so maybe see how things play out. Lets say...hypothetically, Frelick/Turang looks like a .280.360/.420 type hitter with elite defense, maybe Yelich comes back and he gets hot and spends the off-seasons working on his core, his back, he gets a little bit of that bat speed back and he hads some loft to the ball again(his exit velo(90%) and hard hit rate(98%) have both been exceptional, just mostly on the ground). 

Maybe Uribe becomes a Emanuel Clase, Peralta gets back to his 2021 status, it clicks for Ashby and HE becomes a legitimate #2/3 pitcher. Lauer throws 180IP and does so at a high level, Houser stays healthy. Adames doesn't have the abnormally low BABIP and he retains the power without the fluke, career low BA/OBP. 

I don't disagree with anyone in this thread and this is a case where no matter what we do(unlike with the Packers today) I'll understand whatever they move and the rationale for it. But it's just a bit more complicated and nuanced, and we should look at it from other teams perspectives. 

If you're Texas, do you really want to give up Jung, Carter, Lieter and Foscue?

 

It's gonna be a very difficult decision and you're gonna piss of fans and you're going take a risk either way. 

 

Lets just extend him and render the whole discussion as moot!

(This is like half blue). 

Yeah. Sorry Juan Soto slipped my mind lol

8 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Yeah. Sorry Juan Soto slipped my mind lol

He actually slipped mine as well. I thought Devers was part of the '25 FA class and I was going to say he MAY have more value...and then when I went to look at that class, no Devers(24) but Soto.

8 minutes ago, Brewcrew82 said:

Yeah. Sorry Juan Soto slipped my mind lol

He actually slipped mine as well. I thought Devers was part of the '25 FA class and I was going to say he MAY have more value...and then when I went to look at that class, no Devers(24) but Soto.

6 hours ago, UpandIn said:

Those statements are inherently at odds. They should have absolutely "zero regard" for fan reaction?

Brewers fans spending more per capita than ANY other fan base in MLB is one of the things that allows the Brewers in the miniscule market they've got to spend as much as they do(cheap as you may believe Attnasio to believe, look at the Pirates, the Os, the Guardians, the As...all the other teams in similar markets), that is absolutely part of what's best for this organization. Look at the Guardians. I remember how they had this ridiculous sellout record goin...it was like 588 days(I don't remember, it's a long list). They've really hurt their relationship with their fan base. Some of that may just be fans complacent with 90 win seasons and some of the luster having worn off on that, but they also don't develop connections with the players as they once did. 
I'm not saying you don't trade Burnes and Woodruff, but maintaining a good relationship with your fanbase is absolutely relevant and important. 

 

I'm talking about deals like Grayson Rodriguez and Jackson Holliday or Bobby Miller, Vargas, Stone and Pepiot or Cartaya.  

I'm not going after anyone's trade suggestions because I've suggested pretty much that Dodgers trade(it's actually my favorite in theory, a 1B prospect and then 3 power righties who are MLB ready. One who could plug into the rotation and then 2 more who could also slide into the rotation or who could come in and throw 2-3-4 innings out of the pen. 

I just think we're are probably expecting a little bit too much back. Sure, we're in the sweet spot in theory. Though maybe you run into a team like Seattle that's desperate for a playoff run for their fanbase(Baltimore) or the LAA start out, they get hot this year and they're a pitcher away from contending...and they're willing to pay more to get that ace. 

I also think we SHOULD expect a kings ransom because Burnes is so valuable. 

Juan Soto says hi! 
I'm thinking he slipped your mind...or maybe you disagree? Not really important as the larger point is that Burnes has immense value. 

Walker Buehler is an example of this if you throw in injury with regression. Buehler was in a class right with Burnes just last year. 6.6 WAR vs 5.6. Now I saw someone propose a trade of Adames and Burnes that included Buehler and someone said there was "no point" in adding Buehler. While I don't agree with that, it shows how quickly a player can lose value.

That said, if Burnes stays healthy, I'm not sure you can quantify how much value he loses. I don't know if it's 50% because he's got 50% less service time....why? Because...as pointed out, the game isn't played on paper. Teams get desperate. Again, just the two teams I mentioned...or maybe the Twins who've been getting more and more aggressive. The Jays might be a team that's got this dominant lineup but lacking an ace. 

 

The point I'm making is that I understand both sides of this. Part of me wants to trade Burnes now and I'd be more than happy to get back....4 pitchers with elite stuff. Try and identify the next Steven Strider(Which may be someone like Bobby Miller) and a couple other elite arms. But;

This isn't true if it gets the Brewer to the World Series or wins them a World Series. I don't think there is a significant difference in trade value from trading him this winter vs this deadline, so maybe see how things play out. Lets say...hypothetically, Frelick/Turang looks like a .280.360/.420 type hitter with elite defense, maybe Yelich comes back and he gets hot and spends the off-seasons working on his core, his back, he gets a little bit of that bat speed back and he hads some loft to the ball again(his exit velo(90%) and hard hit rate(98%) have both been exceptional, just mostly on the ground). 

Maybe Uribe becomes a Emanuel Clase, Peralta gets back to his 2021 status, it clicks for Ashby and HE becomes a legitimate #2/3 pitcher. Lauer throws 180IP and does so at a high level, Houser stays healthy. Adames doesn't have the abnormally low BABIP and he retains the power without the fluke, career low BA/OBP. 

I don't disagree with anyone in this thread and this is a case where no matter what we do(unlike with the Packers today) I'll understand whatever they move and the rationale for it. But it's just a bit more complicated and nuanced, and we should look at it from other teams perspectives. 

If you're Texas, do you really want to give up Jung, Carter, Lieter and Foscue?

 

It's gonna be a very difficult decision and you're gonna piss of fans and you're going take a risk either way. 

 

Lets just extend him and render the whole discussion as moot!

(This is like half blue). 

So what’s the alternative? Hold Burnes another year when you know it hurts the future of the team just so it doesn’t piss-off some casual fans?

And I said a realistic trade return this offseason for Burnes would be 1 top 25, 1 top 50 and 1 top 100, not Cartaya, Miller and Stone, which the Dodgers likely won’t do, or 4 pitchers with elite stuff.

6 hours ago, UpandIn said:

Those statements are inherently at odds. They should have absolutely "zero regard" for fan reaction?

Brewers fans spending more per capita than ANY other fan base in MLB is one of the things that allows the Brewers in the miniscule market they've got to spend as much as they do(cheap as you may believe Attnasio to believe, look at the Pirates, the Os, the Guardians, the As...all the other teams in similar markets), that is absolutely part of what's best for this organization. Look at the Guardians. I remember how they had this ridiculous sellout record goin...it was like 588 days(I don't remember, it's a long list). They've really hurt their relationship with their fan base. Some of that may just be fans complacent with 90 win seasons and some of the luster having worn off on that, but they also don't develop connections with the players as they once did. 
I'm not saying you don't trade Burnes and Woodruff, but maintaining a good relationship with your fanbase is absolutely relevant and important. 

 

I'm talking about deals like Grayson Rodriguez and Jackson Holliday or Bobby Miller, Vargas, Stone and Pepiot or Cartaya.  

I'm not going after anyone's trade suggestions because I've suggested pretty much that Dodgers trade(it's actually my favorite in theory, a 1B prospect and then 3 power righties who are MLB ready. One who could plug into the rotation and then 2 more who could also slide into the rotation or who could come in and throw 2-3-4 innings out of the pen. 

I just think we're are probably expecting a little bit too much back. Sure, we're in the sweet spot in theory. Though maybe you run into a team like Seattle that's desperate for a playoff run for their fanbase(Baltimore) or the LAA start out, they get hot this year and they're a pitcher away from contending...and they're willing to pay more to get that ace. 

I also think we SHOULD expect a kings ransom because Burnes is so valuable. 

Juan Soto says hi! 
I'm thinking he slipped your mind...or maybe you disagree? Not really important as the larger point is that Burnes has immense value. 

Walker Buehler is an example of this if you throw in injury with regression. Buehler was in a class right with Burnes just last year. 6.6 WAR vs 5.6. Now I saw someone propose a trade of Adames and Burnes that included Buehler and someone said there was "no point" in adding Buehler. While I don't agree with that, it shows how quickly a player can lose value.

That said, if Burnes stays healthy, I'm not sure you can quantify how much value he loses. I don't know if it's 50% because he's got 50% less service time....why? Because...as pointed out, the game isn't played on paper. Teams get desperate. Again, just the two teams I mentioned...or maybe the Twins who've been getting more and more aggressive. The Jays might be a team that's got this dominant lineup but lacking an ace. 

 

The point I'm making is that I understand both sides of this. Part of me wants to trade Burnes now and I'd be more than happy to get back....4 pitchers with elite stuff. Try and identify the next Steven Strider(Which may be someone like Bobby Miller) and a couple other elite arms. But;

This isn't true if it gets the Brewer to the World Series or wins them a World Series. I don't think there is a significant difference in trade value from trading him this winter vs this deadline, so maybe see how things play out. Lets say...hypothetically, Frelick/Turang looks like a .280.360/.420 type hitter with elite defense, maybe Yelich comes back and he gets hot and spends the off-seasons working on his core, his back, he gets a little bit of that bat speed back and he hads some loft to the ball again(his exit velo(90%) and hard hit rate(98%) have both been exceptional, just mostly on the ground). 

Maybe Uribe becomes a Emanuel Clase, Peralta gets back to his 2021 status, it clicks for Ashby and HE becomes a legitimate #2/3 pitcher. Lauer throws 180IP and does so at a high level, Houser stays healthy. Adames doesn't have the abnormally low BABIP and he retains the power without the fluke, career low BA/OBP. 

I don't disagree with anyone in this thread and this is a case where no matter what we do(unlike with the Packers today) I'll understand whatever they move and the rationale for it. But it's just a bit more complicated and nuanced, and we should look at it from other teams perspectives. 

If you're Texas, do you really want to give up Jung, Carter, Lieter and Foscue?

 

It's gonna be a very difficult decision and you're gonna piss of fans and you're going take a risk either way. 

 

Lets just extend him and render the whole discussion as moot!

(This is like half blue). 

So what’s the alternative? Hold Burnes another year when you know it hurts the future of the team just so it doesn’t piss-off some casual fans?

And I said a realistic trade return this offseason for Burnes would be 1 top 25, 1 top 50 and 1 top 100, not Cartaya, Miller and Stone, which the Dodgers likely won’t do, or 4 pitchers with elite stuff.

1 hour ago, SF70 said:

So what’s the alternative? Hold Burnes another year when you know it hurts the future of the team just so it doesn’t piss-off some casual fans?

And I said a realistic trade return this offseason for Burnes would be 1 top 25, 1 top 50 and 1 top 100, not Cartaya, Miller and Stone, which the Dodgers likely won’t do, or 4 pitchers with elite stuff.

 

Did I NOT already answer all of these questeions?

Ignoring how you've reworded this in an obviously sarcastic tone ...you said

Quote

They should have absolutely "zero regard" for fan reaction?

To whit I responded;

Quote

 

Those statements are inherently at odds[That they should do what's best for the team while ignoring the fan base]. They should have absolutely "zero regard" for fan reaction?

Brewers fans spending more per capita than ANY other fan base in MLB is one of the things that allows the Brewers in the miniscule market they've got to spend as much as they do(cheap as you may believe Attnasio to believe, look at the Pirates, the Os, the Guardians, the As...all the other teams in similar markets), that is absolutely part of what's best for this organization. Look at the Guardians. I remember how they had this ridiculous sellout record goin...it was like 588 days(I don't remember, it's a long list). They've really hurt their relationship with their fan base. Some of that may just be fans complacent with 90 win seasons and some of the luster having worn off on that, but they also don't develop connections with the players as they once did. 
I'm not saying you don't trade Burnes and Woodruff, but maintaining a good relationship with your fanbase is absolutely relevant and important. 

 

You also said;

Quote

That’s also a return more valuable to this team at this time than keeping Burnes for this coming season.

Quote

 

Again, I replied with;

This isn't true if it gets the Brewer to the World Series or wins them a World Series. I also don't think there is a significant difference in trade value from trading him this winter vs this deadline, so maybe see how things play out.

 

 

 

Last sentence;

Quote

And I said a realistic trade return this offseason for Burnes would be 1 top 25, 1 top 50 and 1 top 100, not Cartaya, Miller and Stone, which the Dodgers likely won’t do, or 4 pitchers with elite stuff.

You realize that this conversation didn't start with you, right? I made a comment saying I think SOME of the trade suggestions may be a little overly ambitious on our behalf, comparing it to what SOME fans expected for Hader(two top 15 prospects for example). I listed a couple and you said that's exactly what they should get. 

But just for clarity real quick, Cartaya(8), Miller(26), Stone(77). 

That seems reasonably inline with your 1-25(#8), 1-50(#26), 50-100(#77). In fact...it's quite literally that. I agree, the Dodgers likely won't do that...which is how this conversation started. 

Now, YOU said that would be a fair return, but you weren't the person this comment was initially directed to. I made a general statement;

Quote

 

Yeah, I'm starting to wonder if maybe we're doing what some fans did with Hader. 

I got into a Twitter debate with a fan at the start of this season in which he stated we'd get "at least 4 top 100 prospects" back for Hader. 

I don't think 4 top 100 or 150 prospects is expecting too much for Burnes, but a lot of us are naturally just looking at teams who appear to be likely invested in getting an ace and picking 3 or 4 of their top 5-10 prospects. A team would have to be pretty desperate. And that may well happen, but if it doesn't, we should just hold onto them. 

 

And then you responded with;

Quote

But that’s the type of return this team would likely get if they shopped Burnes this offseason, especially from a team like the Dodgers who would have a leg-up with extending Burnes, imo.

So I'm not sure what the debate is here, but I feel like I address all these statements. 

The idea that it'd be just "casual fans," who...-by the way, are the lifeblood of an MLB franchise as it takes more than a small pct of the fan base in a market as small as Milwaukee's to help generate the revenue that would allow them to push the payroll into the 140+ range- Who'd be upset with the Brewers trading Burnes...I disagree with that. I think it's a bit of an arrogant statement calling fans who don't agree with you "casual" fans.

It's also, as I've said when I pointed out how the Cleveland Guardians fan base has gone from a fanbase that went from selling out every game over a 7 year period to now being 25th, ahead of only KC, Pitt, Tampa, Miami and Oakland...this depsite the fact that they won 90 games and made the playoffs with the youngest core in MLB and and having a nice stadium...as opposed to Oakland and Tampa who have terrible stadiums. And they were the only ahead of Tampa Bay in attendance and over 1.1M behind Philly in attendance, the next lowest rated team.

So yes, I'd say you should PROBABLY give at least some thought to those "casual" fan base. What I DIDN'T say was that you shouldn't trade Burnes. Just that it should be taken into consideration whereas you said;

Quote

Paper is all that should matter. Arnold & co need to do what’s best for the organization with absolutely zero regard for potential fan reaction.

This-This is the part I disagreed with and VERY clearly said;

Quote

I'm not saying you don't trade Burnes and Woodruff, but maintaining a good relationship with your fanbase is absolutely relevant and important. 

I feel like I made that point when I cited the Brewers fanbase outspending every other fan base in MLB per capita and again, object to the idea that the fans who'd be upset are "casuals."

But again, NO, I did not say;

Quote

Hold Burnes another year when you know it hurts the future of the team just so it doesn’t piss-off some casual fans?

I addressed this from EVERY angle and STILL never said you don't trade Burnes and I rejected the "it hurts the future of the team just so it doesn't piss off some "casual fans." 

Tell me what well run business ANYWHERE becomes one without a completely disregard for a teams paying customers?

1 hour ago, SF70 said:

So what’s the alternative? Hold Burnes another year when you know it hurts the future of the team just so it doesn’t piss-off some casual fans?

And I said a realistic trade return this offseason for Burnes would be 1 top 25, 1 top 50 and 1 top 100, not Cartaya, Miller and Stone, which the Dodgers likely won’t do, or 4 pitchers with elite stuff.

 

Did I NOT already answer all of these questeions?

Ignoring how you've reworded this in an obviously sarcastic tone ...you said

Quote

They should have absolutely "zero regard" for fan reaction?

To whit I responded;

Quote

 

Those statements are inherently at odds[That they should do what's best for the team while ignoring the fan base]. They should have absolutely "zero regard" for fan reaction?

Brewers fans spending more per capita than ANY other fan base in MLB is one of the things that allows the Brewers in the miniscule market they've got to spend as much as they do(cheap as you may believe Attnasio to believe, look at the Pirates, the Os, the Guardians, the As...all the other teams in similar markets), that is absolutely part of what's best for this organization. Look at the Guardians. I remember how they had this ridiculous sellout record goin...it was like 588 days(I don't remember, it's a long list). They've really hurt their relationship with their fan base. Some of that may just be fans complacent with 90 win seasons and some of the luster having worn off on that, but they also don't develop connections with the players as they once did. 
I'm not saying you don't trade Burnes and Woodruff, but maintaining a good relationship with your fanbase is absolutely relevant and important. 

 

You also said;

Quote

That’s also a return more valuable to this team at this time than keeping Burnes for this coming season.

Quote

 

Again, I replied with;

This isn't true if it gets the Brewer to the World Series or wins them a World Series. I also don't think there is a significant difference in trade value from trading him this winter vs this deadline, so maybe see how things play out.

 

 

 

Last sentence;

Quote

And I said a realistic trade return this offseason for Burnes would be 1 top 25, 1 top 50 and 1 top 100, not Cartaya, Miller and Stone, which the Dodgers likely won’t do, or 4 pitchers with elite stuff.

You realize that this conversation didn't start with you, right? I made a comment saying I think SOME of the trade suggestions may be a little overly ambitious on our behalf, comparing it to what SOME fans expected for Hader(two top 15 prospects for example). I listed a couple and you said that's exactly what they should get. 

But just for clarity real quick, Cartaya(8), Miller(26), Stone(77). 

That seems reasonably inline with your 1-25(#8), 1-50(#26), 50-100(#77). In fact...it's quite literally that. I agree, the Dodgers likely won't do that...which is how this conversation started. 

Now, YOU said that would be a fair return, but you weren't the person this comment was initially directed to. I made a general statement;

Quote

 

Yeah, I'm starting to wonder if maybe we're doing what some fans did with Hader. 

I got into a Twitter debate with a fan at the start of this season in which he stated we'd get "at least 4 top 100 prospects" back for Hader. 

I don't think 4 top 100 or 150 prospects is expecting too much for Burnes, but a lot of us are naturally just looking at teams who appear to be likely invested in getting an ace and picking 3 or 4 of their top 5-10 prospects. A team would have to be pretty desperate. And that may well happen, but if it doesn't, we should just hold onto them. 

 

And then you responded with;

Quote

But that’s the type of return this team would likely get if they shopped Burnes this offseason, especially from a team like the Dodgers who would have a leg-up with extending Burnes, imo.

So I'm not sure what the debate is here, but I feel like I address all these statements. 

The idea that it'd be just "casual fans," who...-by the way, are the lifeblood of an MLB franchise as it takes more than a small pct of the fan base in a market as small as Milwaukee's to help generate the revenue that would allow them to push the payroll into the 140+ range- Who'd be upset with the Brewers trading Burnes...I disagree with that. I think it's a bit of an arrogant statement calling fans who don't agree with you "casual" fans.

It's also, as I've said when I pointed out how the Cleveland Guardians fan base has gone from a fanbase that went from selling out every game over a 7 year period to now being 25th, ahead of only KC, Pitt, Tampa, Miami and Oakland...this depsite the fact that they won 90 games and made the playoffs with the youngest core in MLB and and having a nice stadium...as opposed to Oakland and Tampa who have terrible stadiums. And they were the only ahead of Tampa Bay in attendance and over 1.1M behind Philly in attendance, the next lowest rated team.

So yes, I'd say you should PROBABLY give at least some thought to those "casual" fan base. What I DIDN'T say was that you shouldn't trade Burnes. Just that it should be taken into consideration whereas you said;

Quote

Paper is all that should matter. Arnold & co need to do what’s best for the organization with absolutely zero regard for potential fan reaction.

This-This is the part I disagreed with and VERY clearly said;

Quote

I'm not saying you don't trade Burnes and Woodruff, but maintaining a good relationship with your fanbase is absolutely relevant and important. 

I feel like I made that point when I cited the Brewers fanbase outspending every other fan base in MLB per capita and again, object to the idea that the fans who'd be upset are "casuals."

But again, NO, I did not say;

Quote

Hold Burnes another year when you know it hurts the future of the team just so it doesn’t piss-off some casual fans?

I addressed this from EVERY angle and STILL never said you don't trade Burnes and I rejected the "it hurts the future of the team just so it doesn't piss off some "casual fans." 

Tell me what well run business ANYWHERE becomes one without a completely disregard for a teams paying customers?

19 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

Did I NOT already answer all of these questeions?

Ignoring how you've reworded this in an obviously sarcastic tone ...you said

To whit I responded;

 

You also said;

 

 

Last sentence;

You realize that this conversation didn't start with you, right? I made a comment saying I think SOME of the trade suggestions may be a little overly ambitious on our behalf, comparing it to what SOME fans expected for Hader(two top 15 prospects for example). I listed a couple and you said that's exactly what they should get. 

But just for clarity real quick, Cartaya(8), Miller(26), Stone(77). 

That seems reasonably inline with your 1-25(#8), 1-50(#26), 50-100(#77). In fact...it's quite literally that. I agree, the Dodgers likely won't do that...which is how this conversation started. 

Now, YOU said that would be a fair return, but you weren't the person this comment was initially directed to. I made a general statement;

And then you responded with;

 

So I'm not sure what the debate is here, but I feel like I address all these statements. 

The idea that it'd be just "casual fans," who...-by the way, are the lifeblood of an MLB franchise as it takes more than a small pct of the fan base in a market as small as Milwaukee's to help generate the revenue that would allow them to push the payroll into the 140+ range- Who'd be upset with the Brewers trading Burnes...I disagree with that. I think it's a bit of an arrogant statement calling fans who don't agree with you "casual" fans.

 

It's also, as I've said when I pointed out how the Cleveland Guardians fan base has gone from a fanbase that went from selling out every game over a 7 year period to now being 25th, ahead of only KC, Pitt, Tampa, Miami and Oakland...this depsite the fact that they won 90 games and made the playoffs with the youngest core in MLB and and having a nice stadium...as opposed to Oakland and Tampa who have terrible stadiums. And they were the only ahead of Tampa Bay in attendance and over 1.1M behind Philly in attendance, the next lowest rated team.

 

So yes, I'd say you should PROBABLY give at least some thought to those "casual" fan base. What I DIDN'T say was that you shouldn't trade Burnes. Just that it should be taken into consideration whereas you said;

This-This is the part I disagreed with and VERY clearly said;

 

I feel like I made that point when I cited the Brewers fanbase outspending every other fan base in MLB per capita and again, object to the idea that the fans who'd be upset are "casuals."

But again, NO, I did not say;

I addressed this from EVERY angle and STILL never said you don't trade Burnes and I rejected the "it hurts the future of the team just so it doesn't piss off some "casual fans." 

 

Tell me what well run business ANYWHERE becomes one without a completely disregard for a teams paying customers?

I should have been more specific in my trade return package for Burnes. I should have stated top 10-25 prospect, which eliminates a Cartaya, my mistake.

And your right, after re-reading your post you did question some of the return packages as being too much, which I agree with, again my mistake.

And while I understand your take on not alienating the fan-base, I’m of the belief that when the fans see the athletes this organization will be installing throughout the lineup the next couple of years, and the excitement of watching players running wild both in the field and on the bases, they’ll come to AmFam in droves for the foreseeable future.

19 minutes ago, UpandIn said:

Did I NOT already answer all of these questeions?

Ignoring how you've reworded this in an obviously sarcastic tone ...you said

To whit I responded;

 

You also said;

 

 

Last sentence;

You realize that this conversation didn't start with you, right? I made a comment saying I think SOME of the trade suggestions may be a little overly ambitious on our behalf, comparing it to what SOME fans expected for Hader(two top 15 prospects for example). I listed a couple and you said that's exactly what they should get. 

But just for clarity real quick, Cartaya(8), Miller(26), Stone(77). 

That seems reasonably inline with your 1-25(#8), 1-50(#26), 50-100(#77). In fact...it's quite literally that. I agree, the Dodgers likely won't do that...which is how this conversation started. 

Now, YOU said that would be a fair return, but you weren't the person this comment was initially directed to. I made a general statement;

And then you responded with;

 

So I'm not sure what the debate is here, but I feel like I address all these statements. 

The idea that it'd be just "casual fans," who...-by the way, are the lifeblood of an MLB franchise as it takes more than a small pct of the fan base in a market as small as Milwaukee's to help generate the revenue that would allow them to push the payroll into the 140+ range- Who'd be upset with the Brewers trading Burnes...I disagree with that. I think it's a bit of an arrogant statement calling fans who don't agree with you "casual" fans.

 

It's also, as I've said when I pointed out how the Cleveland Guardians fan base has gone from a fanbase that went from selling out every game over a 7 year period to now being 25th, ahead of only KC, Pitt, Tampa, Miami and Oakland...this depsite the fact that they won 90 games and made the playoffs with the youngest core in MLB and and having a nice stadium...as opposed to Oakland and Tampa who have terrible stadiums. And they were the only ahead of Tampa Bay in attendance and over 1.1M behind Philly in attendance, the next lowest rated team.

 

So yes, I'd say you should PROBABLY give at least some thought to those "casual" fan base. What I DIDN'T say was that you shouldn't trade Burnes. Just that it should be taken into consideration whereas you said;

This-This is the part I disagreed with and VERY clearly said;

 

I feel like I made that point when I cited the Brewers fanbase outspending every other fan base in MLB per capita and again, object to the idea that the fans who'd be upset are "casuals."

But again, NO, I did not say;

I addressed this from EVERY angle and STILL never said you don't trade Burnes and I rejected the "it hurts the future of the team just so it doesn't piss off some "casual fans." 

 

Tell me what well run business ANYWHERE becomes one without a completely disregard for a teams paying customers?

I should have been more specific in my trade return package for Burnes. I should have stated top 10-25 prospect, which eliminates a Cartaya, my mistake.

And your right, after re-reading your post you did question some of the return packages as being too much, which I agree with, again my mistake.

And while I understand your take on not alienating the fan-base, I’m of the belief that when the fans see the athletes this organization will be installing throughout the lineup the next couple of years, and the excitement of watching players running wild both in the field and on the bases, they’ll come to AmFam in droves for the foreseeable future.

12 hours ago, SF70 said:

A top 3 SP in the game shopped to the highest bidder will return the talent needed to not just extend the “bites at the apple” contention strategy, but improve the overall talent level of this organization beyond anything we’d get by holding Burnes for another year.

Realistically Burnes returns — 1 top 25, 1 top 50, 1 top 100. With at least 2 of them big-league ready. That’s a fair return. That’s also a return more valuable to this team at this time than keeping Burnes for this coming season.

Or it totally destroys any chance of biting an apple for 2+ years. It is also more likely those prospects all fail to be anything meaningful in the grand scheme and don't really help a ton in biting apples in the future. 

If this was 2015 this would be a total no brainer...it isn't in 2022. Not saying they should hold onto him, but there are many more paths they could take than trading him. If they got a massive offer...like includes a borderline Top 10 prospect in baseball plus a lot more, I would send him on his way. If all we are getting offered is a prospect barely sitting in the Top 50 to headline the trade...I might just try to roll the dice one more year. 

12 hours ago, SF70 said:

A top 3 SP in the game shopped to the highest bidder will return the talent needed to not just extend the “bites at the apple” contention strategy, but improve the overall talent level of this organization beyond anything we’d get by holding Burnes for another year.

Realistically Burnes returns — 1 top 25, 1 top 50, 1 top 100. With at least 2 of them big-league ready. That’s a fair return. That’s also a return more valuable to this team at this time than keeping Burnes for this coming season.

Or it totally destroys any chance of biting an apple for 2+ years. It is also more likely those prospects all fail to be anything meaningful in the grand scheme and don't really help a ton in biting apples in the future. 

If this was 2015 this would be a total no brainer...it isn't in 2022. Not saying they should hold onto him, but there are many more paths they could take than trading him. If they got a massive offer...like includes a borderline Top 10 prospect in baseball plus a lot more, I would send him on his way. If all we are getting offered is a prospect barely sitting in the Top 50 to headline the trade...I might just try to roll the dice one more year. 

I think both the Rays and Guardians have proven you can trade frontline pitching and still be highly competitive.  It's certainly a gamble whenever you're trading for prospects, but I have confidence in our scouting department.

I think both the Rays and Guardians have proven you can trade frontline pitching and still be highly competitive.  It's certainly a gamble whenever you're trading for prospects, but I have confidence in our scouting department.

3 hours ago, wibadgers23 said:

I think both the Rays and Guardians have proven you can trade frontline pitching and still be highly competitive.  It's certainly a gamble whenever you're trading for prospects, but I have confidence in our scouting department.

Me too, which is why I’m really hoping Arnold tries to mimic Cleveland with regards to the trade-off of the non-extentionables for young controllable talent.

Now that we have a proven pipeline of amateur talent procurement, a proven PDS, and what is looking like, at least with early returns being positive, an improving position player & hitting development system, the trading-off of our non-extensionables is the missing piece to perpetual contention.

3 hours ago, wibadgers23 said:

I think both the Rays and Guardians have proven you can trade frontline pitching and still be highly competitive.  It's certainly a gamble whenever you're trading for prospects, but I have confidence in our scouting department.

Me too, which is why I’m really hoping Arnold tries to mimic Cleveland with regards to the trade-off of the non-extentionables for young controllable talent.

Now that we have a proven pipeline of amateur talent procurement, a proven PDS, and what is looking like, at least with early returns being positive, an improving position player & hitting development system, the trading-off of our non-extensionables is the missing piece to perpetual contention.

21 minutes ago, SF70 said:

Me too, which is why I’m really hoping Arnold tries to mimic Cleveland with regards to the trade-off of the non-extentionables for young controllable talent.

Now that we have a proven pipeline of amateur talent procurement, a proven PDS, and what is looking like, at least with early returns being positive, an improving position player & hitting development system, the trading-off of our non-extensionables is the missing piece to perpetual contention.

I think we should wait until the organization has actually produced an everyday position player worth a lick, let alone an all-star, before labeling the development system "improved" and talking about "perpetual contention" upon trading the most dominant starting pitcher in franchise history. Can we really be certain that a guy such as Garrett Mitchell won't turn into the next Hiura/Brett Phillips at the plate with a 41% K rate, SSA notwithstanding? 

21 minutes ago, SF70 said:

Me too, which is why I’m really hoping Arnold tries to mimic Cleveland with regards to the trade-off of the non-extentionables for young controllable talent.

Now that we have a proven pipeline of amateur talent procurement, a proven PDS, and what is looking like, at least with early returns being positive, an improving position player & hitting development system, the trading-off of our non-extensionables is the missing piece to perpetual contention.

I think we should wait until the organization has actually produced an everyday position player worth a lick, let alone an all-star, before labeling the development system "improved" and talking about "perpetual contention" upon trading the most dominant starting pitcher in franchise history. Can we really be certain that a guy such as Garrett Mitchell won't turn into the next Hiura/Brett Phillips at the plate with a 41% K rate, SSA notwithstanding?