Is there any chance of Sheets in a Brewer uniform beyond '08? (Merged with Lose Lose Situation)

[jazzytrav]

Sheets has been great when he has been able to pitch + his injuries were more of a "freak" nature and never about his elbow or shoulder.

Wasn't one of his injuries elbow tendinitis? I could be wrong, but I thought that's why he was out for the end of '05 and beginning of '06.

 

Maybe he became another greedy athlete (sorry but when you get past a million and you need more you are greedy) but he seems to me to be of the Brett Favre mentality...he loves what he is doing and money--though very important--is not everything.

I realize Brett Favre never really talked about money, but the guy made $11 million last year. It's easy to not talk about money when you're making gobs of it.

 

But you may be right. Maybe it isn't all about money. Maybe he just wants to be somewhere that he's appreciated by the fans, and maybe that's more important than money. If that's the case, I doubt he'll stay. It's very much related to this:

 

It's just like the idiot "diehard" Cub fans who thought Mark Prior was being a wimp. Fans always know best though. I mean, he only turned out to have one of the most damaged pitching arms of his generation.

Benny has gotten so much crap over the years about his injuries from Brewers fans, and regardless of whether they're justified, he's not going to have some strange loyalty to a place where most casual fans, and some hardcore fans, think he's a wimp.

[tristarscoop]

I think it says something when a good portion on knowledgeable Brewer fans assume that Ben will be out at some point for an injury. I don't necessarily blame him - it's not like I think he's out there trying to find these strange "freak" injuries, but they are happening none-the-less. I think at some point that has seeped into the brain-connect on him. Any discussion on Ben heading into this season, whether in the media or on fan board, was centered on the sentence "If he stays healthy." Whether or not the injuries were valid pitching-related injuries, they still kept him out of games and therefore I think they matter.

[BrewCrewBaseball]

It all depends on the development of our young arms. If they show they can get the job done then we will let Sheets go. If lets say, only Parra has a good year and Villy struggles then they will make a strong push to keep him a Brewer.

 

Then again, Mark Ant says he will continue to put the money out there to improve the team. And someone stated that we do lose Gagne and Cam's salary at seasons end. That is 17 mil plus right there. Abry will just happen and the Brewers will continue to pay it out season by season until the next guy in the system shows he is ready for the next level. Like Escobar for example, Hardy will be gone if he can start hitting in AAA.

 

The Brewers would be better off giving Sheets a two year extention and throwing some money at him this season to make that work. I say a 5 mil raise this year and then the extention would be around 14 to 18 mil the next two years to keep him here.

[Invader3K]

One thing that frustrates me with these discussions about Sheets is that Jeff Suppan always gets brought up. Suppan and Sheets don't have to be mutually exclusive after this season. As the poster above just pointed out, a lot of other money could be coming off the books that is currently tied to Gagne, Cameron, and others. Pointing to Jeff Suppan's presence as what stops the Brewers from re-signing Sheets is just way too simplistic.

[endaround]

And Weeks, Hardy, Hart, and Fielder will be eating a lot of money.

 

And Sheets will not take a 2 year extension at 14- 18 million, he'd rightfully laugh at that

[logan82]

I have said it before, but I think it bears repeating. I think he signs for more years somewhere else with a similar average per year that we offer. For a shorter contract we can match the money, but we can't match the years. Well, we can match the years, but we can't afford to eat a bad contract as easily as some other clubs.

[BrewCrewBaseball]

And Weeks, Hardy, Hart, and Fielder will be eating a lot of money.

 

And Sheets will not take a 2 year extension at 14- 18 million, he'd rightfully laugh at that

 

What do you think he will get then? He's not going to get more than 18-20 per! He's not Santana... He hasnt proven that he can stay on the mound a whole season... A team will pay him, but not what your thinking.

[fondybrewfan]

The dollar amount isnt the issue, the years part is

 

This could be Ben's last big contract, hell be looking for at least 4 years

 

If he would take 4 years at $16 a year I would do it

[TooLiveBrew]

I doubt a 4-yr. deal will get him to stay, as I'd imagine he'll receive at least 6 other 4 yr. offers for equal or greater money... and he'll probably get at least one offer of 5 years. Just guessin', though.

[jazzytrav]

I would think some teams would offer him 6 years because the big money teams need pitching and can eat the money if he gets injured twice a year.

[endaround]

He'll at least get 4 with a decent sized buyout on a 5th year option

[RyDogg66]

And Weeks, Hardy, Hart, and Fielder will be eating a lot of money.

 

And Sheets will not take a 2 year extension at 14- 18 million, he'd rightfully laugh at that

What do you think he will get then? He's not going to get more than 18-20 per! He's not Santana... He hasnt proven that he can stay on the mound a whole season... A team will pay him, but not what your thinking.

He hasnt? What did he prove in 2001-2004? He has proven he can stay on the mount a whole season.

 

[chadomac]

You guys still wanna pony up the 4 years 60 mil after today?

[Ennder]

I don't like a 4 year deal for any pitcher really because injuries are just too common. Has nothing specifically to do with Sheets. If I'm going to make someone the exception it would probably be someone with a 100% pure track record though, which is like 5% of the FA pitchers in baseball.

[danzig6767]

I don't like a 4 year deal for any pitcher really because injuries are just too common. Has nothing specifically to do with Sheets. If I'm going to make someone the exception it would probably be someone with a 100% pure track record though, which is like 5% of the FA pitchers in baseball.

Obviously any starting pitcher is a bigger injury concern for a team vs a position player when handing out a long term big money contract. With that said, i think anyone is kidding themselves to think that teams won't view Sheets as a higher injury risk than most other pitchers who have secured big contracts.

Just because starting pitchers as a rule come with extra risk, they don't all come with the same risk factor.

[RyDogg66]

You guys still wanna pony up the 4 years 60 mil after today?

 

yep.

[orca1963]

You guys still wanna pony up the 4 years 60 mil after today?

 

Absolutely. His injuries, though frustrating are not anywhere near the recurrence level of a woods or prior...Benny is a proven ace and I don't think the fact that he has been injured before is an absolute that it will happen again.

[logan82]

How much are the Yankees and Mets new stadiums going to affect our luxury tax checks in the years to come?

[orca1963]

I missed today's game and didn't know that Ben had been pulled - I still stand by my post though. I want him to remain a Brewer. I have said this in other posts too, a lot of it for me is who would you get to take his place? If you get someone who remains healthy but can't put up his numbers with the money being comprable then stick with what you know.

 

If you know someone the Brewers could get that would be an "Ace" then maybe you try and deal him. I noticed we didn't even get in the hunt for the biggest aces.

[Weirdos19]

I'd say let Sheets go if he gets 16+ wins. Every scout in the game says Yo will be an ace soon.

 

Take the 15mil you save on not signing Ben, and go out and get a legitimate 200 inning, 15 win guy.

[logan82]

Weirdos19 wrote:

Take the 15mil you save on not signing Ben, and go out and get a legitimate 200 inning, 15 win guy.

Lots of guys could easily be a 15 win guy on a good team.

[Ennder]

I'd say let Sheets go if he gets 16+ wins. Every scout in the game says Yo will be an ace soon.

 

Take the 15mil you save on not signing Ben, and go out and get a legitimate 200 inning, 15 win guy.

 

These players don't exist. I mean really either a pitcher is healthy and still good and teams sign them themselves or they have an injury history or are on a downward trend and teams spend too much to get them. If it were so easy as to just give some sure thing 200+ IP stud $15M I'd say things would be much easier. We will not get a pitcher as good as Sheets as a FA because pitchers who are that good almost never go to FA and when they do they ask for contracts that are way too risky.

[Gopher74]

Can't see Benny in a uni other than a big market team, or some team with a seriously low payroll. He's too much of a risk even if he excels this year. I think it'll follow Cordero scenario, close but no cigar. I'd even bet that length of contract is the determining factor. He's worth a 3 year deal--I'd guess 48 mil. I think he'll get a 4 year deal at 68. That's assuming he's not injured and has a good year. If something goes wrong with him those number will ratchet down considerably.

I see what you're saying with the Cordero situation, but this is so much more important that I think Melvin has to realize that. I think the Brewers could be a playoff team next year without him. Just saying it's possible if things work right, maybe Weaver sticks around and has a season like he had for the Dodgers, whatever. But the issue then becomes the playoffs, which should be our main concern right now. Winning playoff series..as far as how we assemble a roster. I do not see how we could win a playoff series without that true power arm at the top of our rotation along with Yo. I think Yo's going to develop into a very good one, but I honestly feel as though Parra's the better bet to be a true quote-unquote ace because of his pure stuff. It wasn't long ago that everyone called Gallardo a number 2...a Mike Mussina type pitcher. I think that he's so poised that people forget that while he's got good stuff, it doesn't quite reach the ace status to me while Parra's may..although he's got little chance to reach that status just as most pitchers coming up are unlikely to, even with great stuff.

 

Anyway, that's not the point. The point is, we've got to re-sign Sheets, and I could go into my whole rant about how much money the Brewers now have coming in(should be 65 right off the top next year from MLB) that they can afford to re-sign him from a financial standpoint, and how they absolutely have to from a competitive standpoint.

 

I think it'll come down to how much faith do the Brewers have in him maintaining his health? Looking at it from the casual fans perspective, you'd say that he doesn't have much chance, but looking at it logically, he's had no real arm or shoulder injuries. I think at this point, it's a matter of luck and he's no more an injury risk than anyone else.

[Gopher74]

How much are the Yankees and Mets new stadiums going to affect our luxury tax checks in the years to come?

Significantly. Right now both teams have been given a break for the last couple years. I don't know the specifics, but the moral of the story is those two organizations have been granted a break by MLB for the last maybe 2 years and will for another year I think. After that they're going to have to start paying back out additional money to what they're already paying.

 

How Selig worked the last CBA was really a stroke of genius. Big Market teams are going to be paying out more money progressively through the next several years. And the union's not likely to object to it while you've got the Kansas City's, Milwaukee's and other smaller to mid market teams signing players and shelling out money in addition to the large market teams.

 

These players don't exist. I mean really either a pitcher is healthy and still good and teams sign them themselves or they have an injury history or are on a downward trend and teams spend too much to get them. If it were so easy as to just give some sure thing 200+ IP stud $15M I'd say things would be much easier. We will not get a pitcher as good as Sheets as a FA because pitchers who are that good almost never go to FA and when they do they ask for contracts that are way too risky.

I'd say this is right 9 years out of 10, but this year may be the exception to that rule. Unless there are several FA's re-signed during this season, next years FA class offers a great deal of pitching talent. In fact, I think this may be the one thing that can allow for the Brewers to have a chance at re-signing Sheets. He's going to be the 3rd to 5th best pitcher on the market. A guy like an AJ Burnett, Brad Penny, or John Lackey are all in the Sheets league. Lackey to me should be a 17-20 million dollar a year pitcher as he is exactly what is mentioned when you said those types don't exist for the reasons you gave. And don't get me wrong, I'm not disagreeing with you. A couple examples doesn't disprove the rule, however this year may be the exception.

 

 

 

If we can't re-sign Sheets, I'd say we go after a guy like AJ Burnett. Yes, it could really hurt us if we sign a guy like Burnett to a 3-4 year 15-17 million dollar deal, but to me, that's just the risk we're going to have to take to get a guy who's a true power pitcher and who can dominate teams. If we don't, we're going to be in a lot of trouble come playoff time. Burnett's had injury concerns as well, I understand this, but he's the type of pitcher who I believe is going to all the sudden have it click and go from a 3.50 type ERA to a 3.00 for a few year stretch. I think he'd be a great guy to take a risk on. Again, this is assuming that we don't re-sign Sheets.

 

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"Take the 15mil you save on not signing Ben, and go out and get a legitimate 200 inning, 15 win guy.

 

These players don't exist. "

 

Actually there were 19 of them in 2007.

 

CC Sabathia CLE

B. Webb ARZ

A. Harang CIN

R. Halladay TOR

T. Hudson ATL

J. Lackey ANA

J. Peavy SD

D. Haren OAK

J. Santana MIN

J. Vazquez CHW

C. Zambrano CHC

J. Francis COL

A. Pettitte NYY

F. Carmona CLE

B. Penny LA

T. Lilly CHC

D. Matsuzaka BOS

J. Verlander DET

J. Beckett BOS

 

Of course, we can't just go out and take what we want, like we're at a pitching smorgasbord. But quality starting pitchers, ones with MUCH better health histories than Sheets, are available every winter. We just never pursue them. Danny Haren was there for the taking, if we pieced together an enticing enough package. Hudson, Harang, Penny, Vazquez, and others were acquired via trade.

 

It's not an exact science, knowing who'll be the next Brandon Webb. But maybe it's time the Brewers become the team who swoops in and takes advantage of a situation where a Marlins/Pirates type team is willing to sell off its top starter for a package of heralded nuggets like the great Brad Nelson, Zach Jackson, and Tim Dillard.

 

I fully expect to see Ben Sheets in another uniform in 2009, but that, along with the end of a few other contracts can free up $15+ million to pursue an ace. And maybe this next ace won't be subject to 2-month injuries from paper cuts, or vertigo, every season.

 

All I'm saying is, if Ben is willing to provide a discount, given all the time we've paid him to sit on his can and NOT pitch for us over the years, then yeah, I'd re-sign him. But that won't happen, and his DL time will be absorbed by some other team with a lot more money than we have.