The Return of 3TO (Ridiculously Raking in Nashville) [merged with Hall platoon thread]

[DonMoney4Mgr]

That's way too many AB's for Counsel. I don't like the Branyan option either, been there done that. I'd rather see Gamel even though he's a hack in the field. That will never happen though.

[Brian the Automator]

Doug, stop messing with our emotions!

[kramnoj]

It's not a full platoon. Headlines aren't written by the writers and shouldn't be taken as fact. The article says its an informal platoon, but doesn't elaborate on that. If the choice is Counsell or Hall starting against RH, right now I'm content with Counsell getting a few starts. His OBP is usually near average and he can provide good defense. But that's a different issue than why is Branyan tearing it up in AAA while Gwynn is developing sores from sitting on the bench in the majors. Gwynn may develop into a useful player, but he needs to be getting ABs in AAA to improve himself. His presence on the big league roster isn't helping anybody.

[jeffy]

What I especially don't like is the explanation that Branyan shouldn't come up because he won't clear waivers on the way back down. And the fact that other teams might want to claim him should suggest that he's got something to offer at the plate.

Yes, if he won't clear, then that would imply he continued to perform at the major league level...so why would you be sending him back down? OTOH, if he is not worth keeping in the majors, who cares if someone else claims him. Finally, if other teams want him and the Brewers don't, then trade him.

[MBHA]

And when Branyan faces major league pitching with actual movement on the pitches and goes 1-16 with 10 K's, 1 HR and commits 3 errors at 3B will he still be the darling of this site?

 

The guy has had numerous chances with multiple organizations and failed each time.

 

This is like the 3rd string QB in football. Everybody thinks he great until he actually gets to play and you find out why he's 3rd string.

[kramnoj]

The guy has had numerous chances with multiple organizations and failed each time.

 

You may be intentionally exaggerating, but this isn't close to a true statement. He has provided above average production for his career, and he was quite valuable from 2004-2006 in limited play.

[BrewCrewForever]

Russell Branyan>Craig Counsell

[MBHA]

The guy has had numerous chances with multiple organizations and failed each time.

 

You may be intentionally exaggerating, but this isn't close to a true statement. He has provided above average production for his career, and he was quite valuable from 2004-2006 in limited play.

He has been with 6 organizations in MLB and failed to become a regular each time. If his statistics during that period are considered above average production then I have a differing viewpoint of above average production.

[Weeks4MVP]

And when Branyan faces major league pitching with actual movement on the pitches and goes 1-16 with 10 K's, 1 HR and commits 3 errors at 3B will he still be the darling of this site?

Sounds like a stat line that Counsell will put up in the next couple of weeks minus the home run. Seriously, Counsell does not belong on the field more than once a week. Like he said early on in the season, if he is playing more than 1-2 times a week the Brewers are in trouble.

It's Russell the Muscle time! (granted I would love to see Gamel as well, but it just won't happen)

[BrewCrewForever]

Counsell needs to stick with being a pinch hitter and spelling Hardy and Weeks once in awhile. If anyone should platoon with Hall at 3B (besides Gamel who is not quite ready) it is Russell Branyan.

[rluzinski]

It's not a full platoon. Headlines aren't written by the writers and shouldn't be taken as fact. The article says its an informal platoon, but doesn't elaborate on that.

Yeh, the title of this thread and that article headline falls somewhere between misleading and factually incorrect. All Yost said was, "I'm going to have to do it [start Counsell for Hall against a LH pitcher] a little more until some of these numbers come up for Billy". Some people need to take the time to read the article before jumping to conclusions. For reference:

Hall's career splits:
vs. RH: .254 / .303 / .451 / .754 (1803 PA)
vs. LH: .276 / .358 / .498 / .856 (646 PA)

That's not a huge sample when you are talking about estimating a player's true platoon split, but Hall just has had such a dramatically large one. As a result, it's difficult to conclude that we should expect Hall to have an average platoon split going forward. I can say with confidence that his true split isn't worth 100 points of OPS, though.

He has been with 6 organizations in MLB and failed to become a regular each time.

And no one is suggesting that Branyan should be a regular with the Brewers either, so how is that even relevent?

If his statistics during that period are considered above average production then I have a differing viewpoint of above average production.

First, he doesn't have to be above average, just better than the current options.

His line against RHers from 2005 - 2007:

.240 / .352 / .496 / .848 (526 AB)

I don't ussually look back farther than 3 years but he also crushed RHers in 2004. I don't know if I would expect Branyan to continue having a .352 OBP vs. righties going foward, but I would expect him to outperform Hall and Counsell against them in every way. Wouldn't you?

Of course, you may only care about BA and Ks and if that's the case, there's no sense in debating any further.

[Brewer Killa]

I really can't believe there is a thread that is calling for Branyan. But beyond that, Counsell will give better defense and will hit for a better average. However, we need Hall to be in there and contribute in order to win. If that doesn't happen we are in some trouble anyways. Reading this thread it sounds like Russell is somebody he is not. He is not the answer and like somebody said before, he would be turned on very quickly when he strikes out a bunch of times in the first few games.

[Thurston Fluff]

If Branyan's AAA numbers are what we go by he looks fine but he is a 32 year old playing against 20 somethings. He is what he is a poor mand's Rob Deer. Branyan shouldn't be viewed as any sort of savior and I think the reason they don't bring him up is less to do with losing him as it is they don't think his AAA numbers are going to translate the major leagues any better than is has his entire career. I wouldn't mind if they called him up and sent Gwynn down but I don't think Branyan playing some of the time at third agianst righties is going to all of the sudden solve the problem at third.

[BrewCrewForever]

Branyan shouldn't be viewed as any sort of savior and I think the reason they don't bring him up is less to do with losing him as it is they don't think his AAA numbers are going to translate the major leagues any better than is has his entire career.

I can't speak for all 3TO fans, but I don't expect him to be a savior nor that he will put up those crazy AAA numbers at the big league level. But I do expect him and know he would be more valuable on our team then Tony Gwynn. Rigth now Gwynn really serves no purpose. We don't need to put him in for any one of our 3 OF's on defense late in the game and he never gets used to pinch run. What Russ brings is a guy who can hit RHP with power and will take his walks and get on base. Yes he is not going to hit .300 and he will strike out quite a bit. But his defense is pretty good at 3B and if he is not stating at 3B for Hall he is a great option off the bench late if you can win or tie with one swing of the bat.

 

(pared back quote --1992)

[Scooter1027]

...but I don't think Branyan playing some of the time at third agianst righties is going to all of the sudden solve the problem at third.

I don't know if "solve the problem" is the right terminology, but it certainly would be an upgrade at this point, so why not? As Russ outlined, Branyan's 3 year split against RHP yields an .848 OPS, and a nice .352 OBP. For a team with OBP issues (with Hall's .229 OBP vs. RHP at the forefront), Branyan's ability to get on base would look nice. I know strikeouts are a contentious issue on this site, but Hall has struck out in ~29% (40 of 141) of his PA against RHP anyway, so how would playing Branyan there be different, strikeout-wise? At least Russ would bring some OBP to the table.

(pared back quote --1992)

[rluzinski]

I don't even care about Branyan's AAA numbers and I certainly don't think Branyan is some great solution. I just think it's silly to have no LH power off the bench and I think it would be a travesty if Counsell gets any significant number of starts at 3B (which I doubt he will anyway). It would be an incremental improvement at best to call up Branyan but it's one that should be made, IMO.

 

Counsell will give better defense and will hit for a better average.

 

I will grant you the defense and that could be quite significant. Can Branyan even play adequete defense at 3B anymore? If he can't, it still like to bring him up but wouldn't even bothering with any starts at 3B. The infield defense is bad enough.

 

In contrast his offense value isn't even worth mentioning. Counsell had a .249 BA from 05' - 07' against RH pitchers. In contrast, Branyan hit .240 against them over the same period but crushes Counsell's numbers in every other way. And that's not really a complement to Branyan. It's not hard to do when you put up a .696 OPS even when you have the platoon advantage!

 

Counsell has negative value at the plate, platoon advantage or not. The offensive bar is set so miserably low for him that just about any other hitter is going to be an improvement, offensively.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

These Branyan debates grow so tiresome. They always devolve into this.

 

A: Why do you think Branyon would be a savior?

 

B: I don't.

 

A: Then why do you think he's so great?

 

B: I don't.

 

A: But why do you want him up?

 

B: Because he's better than the current options.

 

A. But he's not even that good!

 

B. I know!

[joepepsi]

The fact is, the Brewers could use a lefty bat off the bench and against tough righties. Since Yost almost never gives a regular outfielder the day off, it is of no benefit to have Kapler and Gwynn both riding the pines. Gwynn should go down, Kapler should be first choice for OF backup, while Dillon and Branyan can both fill in around the corners. Seems like a much better bench all around.

[monty57]

I like Melvin a lot. He's created a team worth cheering for for the first time in many years. However, he has dropped the ball a couple times in building this year's team. First, we were forced to carry 14 pitchers after spending a lot of money to rebuild a bullpen. Now, we have the grim reality that our backup third baseman is Craig Counsell. Not only does he not hit nearly well enough to play third, I don't feel he can man the position defensively anymore. 3B is called the "hot corner" for a reason - it's much more reactionary than SS or 2B. When there have been line shots to Counsell at third, he looks like he's trying to save his life, not make the play.

I've never been nearly as big a Branyan fan as some on this site, but he would fill two crucial roles for this team. First, he's a much better LH 3B than Counsell, and second, he's a power hitting LH bat off the bench. Currently, we have two light-hitting LH's off the bench. I thought Nelson would be a good guy to fill this role, but since we're now looking for a pseudo-platoon mate for Hall, Branyan makes more sense.

Another thought... how does Dillon do against righties? His MLB stats aren't a very big sample (only 151 total MLB plate appearances), so does anyone know how he's done throughout his minor league days. If Hall needs to sit for a while against righties, and Branyan isn't brought up, I think I'd rather see Dillon get more starts at third than Counsell. Of course, this doesn't fit "the book" that says a platoon has to be a RH and a LH, even if the LH is terrible.

[zzzmanwitz]

TGJ has had a total of 17 ABs this Month and his line has dropped from .333/.421/.400/.821 on april 30th to .219/.316/.250/.566. Send him down to AAA to get some ABs or trade him for Randy Wolf.

 

FREE RUSSELL BRANYAN!!!

[JohnBriggs12]

Counsell gets one big hit in 6 weeks and suddenly he's the answer?

 

Branyan isn't the answer as a guy I'd want in there vs. all righthanders either though in a partial platoon where the lefthanded hitter gets 2 starts a week, I could see Branyan over Counsell but that's not saying much. Can Irribarren play third?

 

Sometime last winter I suggesting signing Eric Hinske because he was essentially Gross with the ability to play 3B. He's doing so well now, Tampa isn't going to give him up.

[nikegolf6]

they don't think his AAA numbers are going to translate the major leagues any better than is has his entire career.

Even if they don't, his career line translates to being 115 points higher in OPS against right handers than Counsell's.

 

[pitchleague]

I'd like to see Branyan up as a kind of "Will Clark" kind of experiment that the Cardinals did in 2000 (he was also on Baltimore that year). I'm not saying Branyan would hit .300+ (he won't--but I'll take it if he would) but he can definitely work the walk and hit the long ball and give the Crew another lefty hitter. Clark kind of came out of nowhere to put up the numbers he did in his final year, and Branyan could be motivated to do the same in what could very likely be his final chance in the majors.

[TooLiveBrew]

Sometime last winter I suggesting signing Eric Hinske because he was essentially Gross with the ability to play 3B. He's doing so well now, Tampa isn't going to give him up.

 

Hinske hasn't played any more than a handful of starts at 3B since 2002-'04 with Toronto. He was below lg.avg. there from the best I can tell. He's slugged the ball well above his career rate in the early season small-sample, so I'd expect him to cool off over the course of the season.

 

Given that they're roughly equal producers, I don't think it much matters which one we signed -- just a good thing we signed one of them. Tampa Bay has been using Hinske primarily in RF/OF, where we obviously don't have room. I don't know if there's anything to that aside from Iwamura's & Longoria's presences on the Rays' roster. My guess is that Hinske wanted a MLB deal (which he got), & Branyan could be had for a minor-league deal. Given the roster flexibility that allows, I'm glad we have Russ... now I wish Melvin would get around to calling him up!

[owbc]

Jim Powell talked about Branyan for awhile during the game last night and concluded that the most you can expect out of Branyan is what Bill Hall already gives us.

 

I think 1868 career MLB plate appearances is enough to convince me that I won't see anything different this time.

 

He's struck out 48 times in 150 plate appearances in Nashville this year. That suggests to me that he's still the same Russell Branyan that didn't do much last time he was here. I think he's a textbook example of a 4-A player.

 

However, our bench has to be one of the worst in baseball. We have Slappy, Slappy Jr., Dillon, and Mike "is he still with the team?" Rivera. So I would advocate trading one of the slappys--preferably getting the inevitable over with and sending Gwynn to the Padres--and then calling Branyan up. He should definitely not start, but he can't be any worse than what we have on the bench right now.

[joepepsi]

Speaking of Mike "is he still with the team?" Rivera, how about given Kendall some time off? His offense is heading for the Chad Moeller cliff.