did linebrink trade handcuff brewers this offseason?

[Crewin06]

I didn't like the Linebrink trade at all at first either. Actually I hated it.

 

Then I got to thinking Suppan is going to be a Brewer for 3 more years, Yo has 6 years left on his Arby clock, Villanueva has 5 years left, Parra still has at least 6 years left. I believe Capuano and Bush are Brewers for at least 2 more years. And that doesn't include Vargas, Sheets or anyone else in the Brewers Rotation.

 

What I am saying is Melvin's motive all along was probably to get 2 prospects that will be ready to help in 4-5 years instead of 1-2 while getting what was perceived a better bullpen arm for the stretch run.

 

That is just my take on the trade 7 months later.

[Tbadder]

I think this is a fascinating question. In general I believe in the domino effect. You do something and the tumblers fall, doors open and close, etc.

 

In this case I'm glad they traded Inman and the rest. I'd rather have the draft choices in Jack's hands. Until he proves otherwise, as an organization I'd want to give him as much ammo as possible.

 

If I was GM I'd always have my mind on possible picks down the road. That's why I didn't like the Cameron signing as much as I could--there's really no plausible way to stockpile a few choices.

[TheBrewer]

keep in mind that remember our BP was really struggling around the time of this deal - its easy to say that the trade wasn't worth it, but in those 25IP if we didnt have him that wouldve meant giving the ball to the struggling BP.. it COULD have been worse in those games, we could've had more losses without him, and we couldve been out of the race a month sooner and no winning record. While it's easy to say this after its all happened and we lost - what if we had gone to the WS - then everyone would be saying "Oh Doug you saved us and our BP with that linebrink trade great trade etc". So many people are opposed to it after the fact because there not use to the Brewers trading prospects at the deadline, it's always been the oppposite. Obviously looking back on it now it probably wasn't one of Melvins better moves and we did give up alot, but if we didn't have him, we might be an under .500 club - with that said I'm happy with how everything turned out

[DrWood]

They could have put together a package as good as MN got for Santana, but he'd clearly be a rental for the brewers.

They could have put a package for Santana together but Santana would have used his no trade clause because we wouldn't be able to give him the extension he wanted.

good point. I didn't think of that.

 

[Blazer25]

Strictly because of his size, Inman projects as a reliever.

Actually size has little to do with projection as far as relief vs starters go. There are just as many successful SP's that are 6-1 and under as their are RP's.

 

Stuff is what makes a guy a reliever/ starter.

 

Here is a general breakdown:

2 plus pitches+ 1 MLB ave pitch= Ace/ perrenial all-star

1 plus pitch+ 2 MLB ave pitches= Top half of the rotation

3 ave MLB pitches= Middling Starter

2 ave pitches= Middle reliver/ long guy

1 plus pitch + One MLB ave pitch = Setup guy/ serviceable closer

2 plus pitches

or

1 (++) pitch + 1 ave MLB pitch= Top of the line closer

 

 

Obviously there are exceptions to the rule. Whenever a guy has a (++) pitch it can "even-out" not having something else. Ben Sheets being a good example. His ++ CB makes his below ave change-up not much of a factor.

[erbacaine04]

Inmann was terrible in Double A last year... had a mid 4 era when he was with the Brewers Farm... and had an over 5 Era when with the Pads Farm...

A guy who was a top 100 ranking at the start of 2007 last year(ranked in the 30s) dropped out of the top 100 this year....

Double A is where you see if a pitcher is likely to make it or not... and Inman does not have great Stuff and is a guy that gets by with Command and sontroll..but that starts hurting you the higher you go in the system...

 

Garrison was always a decent pitcher... at the time of the trade he was not even in the top 20 of our own org in Prospect rankings.... and Joe thatcher is 27 year old BP guy..NOT a prospect...and was undrafted

 

We will get better players than those guys with the 2 draft picks we picked up

 

The trade was basically

Will Inman(3rd rounder), Steve garrison(10th rounder), and Joe Thatcher(Undrafted) for Scott Linebrink(half season), 1st round sandwich pick, White Sox 2nd round pick

 

Inmann and Garrison are both 20 years old.... they were blocked by better pitchers....as soon as Manny Parra showed he was healthy that made Inman very much expendable.

[homer]

had a mid 4 era when he was with the Brewers Farm... and had an over 5 Era when with the Pads Farm...

Other way around : http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=William%20Inman&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=488989

[erbacaine04]

had a mid 4 era when he was with the Brewers Farm... and had an over 5 Era when with the Pads Farm...

Other way around : http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?n=William%20Inman&pos=P&sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=488989

 

Ahhh ok I saw the stats a while back and thought I had them in memory pretty good when arguing that the trade was not a bad trade....thanks for the correction

[sbrylski]

My gripe wasn't so much with who we traded, its what we got in return. I think they could have gotten more than a two month rental of a middle reliever for those same three prospects.

Seconded, my only gripe as well. We should have gotten (if we could) a guy that could be our closer this season, like Otsuka if he didn't get injured.

[DrWood]

this whole idea of low minor pitchers being "blocked" is really not an issue. By the time they are developed enough to be in the majors there will be room for them, or you can trade them at a premium. Of course, parra might be an exception to that rule if he doesn't go north with the big club.

[TooLiveBrew]

Obviously there are exceptions to the rule. Whenever a guy has a (++) pitch it can "even-out" not having something else. Ben Sheets being a good example. His ++ CB makes his below ave change-up not much of a factor.

 

 

Just given your example chart, I have to ask: What about Sheets is the exception? Doesn't his FB count as the second plus pitch, and then the CU is that 3rd pitch? As in, FB (one plus pitch) + CB (two plus pitches) + CU (avg./below-avg.) = Ace/Perennial AS.

 

Or is the CU bad enough that he 'needs' that ++ CB to 'normalize' the CU (for this comparison's sake) back to league-avg.?

[logan82]

I always thought of Sheets as one of the few guys who really gets by on 2 pitches. Before last year he only used his CU 3-4 times max a game most of the time. I remember him saying that he didn't throw his CU much because , why should he if his curve is working.

[TooLiveBrew]

I'll never forget the CU he used to K Derek Lee in 2007. Iirc it was at Wrigley, and the Cubs had a chance at a rally (w/2 out, maybe?). Don't know if it was first half or second half of the season, sorry.

 

That was the filthiest CU I've ever seen Ben throw, and it came in a total pressure-cooker of a situation. Lee was talking to himself the whole way back to the dugout. It was a 2-strike pitch, and you could tell Lee hadn't even considered the possibility of a CU. Masterful pitching by Ben.

 

Any help on clarifying the game here would be appreciated. I'll take a look through the video highlights at brewers.com tonight if I get the chance... maybe it'd be in there.

[trwi7]

That was the filthiest CU I've ever seen Ben throw, and it came in a total pressure-cooker of a situation. Lee was talking to himself the whole way back to the dugout. It was a 2-strike pitch, and you could tell Lee hadn't even considered the possibility of a CU. Masterful pitching by Ben.

 

Any help on clarifying the game here would be appreciated. I'll take a look through the video highlights at brewers.com tonight if I get the chance... maybe it'd be in there.

 

I believe you're talking about the game on June 30th. It was the 1st inning Fontenot had just tripled in Soriano, nobody was out. He threw an 83 mph changeup in the dirt on a full count that Lee flailed at.

[Blazer25]

Or is the CU bad enough that he 'needs' that ++ CB to 'normalize' the CU (for this comparison's sake) back to league-avg.?

DING!

 

You hit it right on the head TLB.

 

Sheets CU is not terrible, he just doesn't have the feel/ confidence in it to use it more than a "show-me" pitch. That is he'll show it once in a while just to keep hitters guessing.

 

You rarely see him throw it when he needs to throw a strike/ get an out.

[TooLiveBrew]

Which was what made/makes it so awesome. I remember thinking at the time that it might have been the best 'pitcher's' pitches I'd ever seen, esp. given the runner on 3B & who was batting.

[Big Reed]

looking back on what I said and what others have added, I have a different view. I still agree with what I said, but for a different reason. yes, trading three prospects for Linebrink did limit wha t the brewers could trade for in the off season as their pitching depth in the minors was not what it once was. the y didn't have any top level minor league pitchers available to trade. their minor league pitching depth definitely took a hit. however, they still had Parra for the immediate future and jeffress for long term. they also still had a promising Charlie Vileunava on the major league roster awaiting a chance.

 

While the brrewers did not have the minor league pitching depth to land a quality player ia a trade this Winter, it appeared the A's, Marlins and orioles were more interested in receiving quality position player prospects verses pitching prospects anyway. Maybin and Jones were the key players each team received. So not having quality minor league pitching prospects didn't really prevent the brewers fro m making those deals. not having any quality hitting prospects and an unwillingness to trade hart was the real reason the brewers didn't pull off a trade.

 

on the other hand, there was nothing to prevent the brewers from going after a quality free agent pitcher this Winter. There were a couple of nice Japanese pitchers available. there were also several other quality free agent pitchers available, and the brewers signed one of them - Gagne.

 

My strategy as a GM would be to go after free agents in the Winter to fill holes; draft the best available player in the draft; and make trades during the year from your depth.

[dadofandrew]

Reed, I'm not sure how many pitchers you think you have room for, as they already have 15-17 legit arms, before injuries.

 

I'd add Riske to the list of who they signed as well. He came for much less than Livian Hernandez, who has been on a steady decline for half-a-decade.

[Big Reed]

i would agree Al. but other people seemed to think we should have tried to trade for more starting pitching like Santana, Sabathia, bedard, haran, Willis and the like. frankly, I don't see the real need to trade for additional starting pitching. I guess people wanted to acquire an ace.

 

A move I wouldn't mind seeing the brewers do is to sign bartolo colon and then stash him on the 60 day Dl much like the way the Cards stashed mulder last year. Colon wil take a while to get healthy, but he might be a nice veteran arm to have down the stretch, or a nice commodity to trade to somebody else. I'm quite confident if the brewers signed him, they'd be able to unload him on somebody.

[hauser42]

Brewers were in a pennant race last year and needed to shore up the bullpen to see if they could win the NL Central Division title. I know it has been a long time since the Brewers have been a contender, but when you have a chance you have to try and improve your team if you can.

 

Melvin went out and got the best setup man he could to help the team. To get talent you have to give up something, and in this case it cost the Brewers 3 arms. I dont think any of these arms would make or break the Brewers future. Inman's talent is starting to level off as he gets to the upper levels and looks to be at best a #4 starter, personally I think he will be a long man/ spot starter when all is said and done. He does not have the stuff to get him in the rotation as a regular.Garrison might be the sleeper in the trade and prove to be a quality starter down the road as he has some raw talent that needs to be developed. Thatcher will be a short man in the pen for his career and you can find guys like that laying aroung each year, look what the Brewers hauled in this year for short men.

 

The trade did not handcuff the Brewers since they did not give up any top end prospects to get Linebrink and it was taking top end guys to players this offseason. If the Brewers wanted to get talent in a trade they would have had to use other players from the farm system or on the 25 man roster, those 3 pitchers were not huge losses.