Yost utters first oxymoron of season

[JohnBriggs12]

According to Ned, Sheets has suffered from a "pattern of bad luck".

 

Well Ned is it a pattern or is it luck? It can't be both. Luck implies something that happens randomly which is inconsistent with a pattern. I am of the belief that none of Sheets' injuries had anything to do with luck (happened randomly) unless you consider what is in your DNA to be the result of luck. If that's the case, I consider myself to be extremely unlucky because I didn't have the DNA that allowed me to throw a ball 90 mph.

 

There is an inherent risk in any sport that involve random acts that could injure a player no matter that player's physical makeup. For instance, Juan Encarnacion's perhaps career ending eye injury, falls completely in the luck category.

 

Sheets' injuries (blisters, broken finger tip, pulled muscles etc.) all occured doing what every pitcher does over and over and were not the result of any fluke play or batted ball. While they may even be rare occurances, it doesn't make them random. That his body part didn't hold up doing what he normally does, indicates a weakness either as part of his conditioning or his DNA. "And That" Ned and Doug, means the chances of something along those lines happening again are quite good.

[Ennder]

Ned is correct that last year was bad luck as well as the inner ear thing. Pitchers get injured fingers, it is just part of the game and can happen to anyone. The idea that there was a conditioning problem or that is likely to recur is pretty unlikely. The groin tweak was pitching in a game that should have been in a rain delay, everyone was slipping all over the field. The hamstring again is something that happens to tons of players in baseball even pitchers and it doesn't just target those with conditioning issues.

 

2005 was because they abused a pitcher because he was pitching outstanding and 2006 was trying to bring that pitcher back before he was ready (these things are as much Sheet's fault as the teams since I know he always lobbies for that extra inning).

[derflotr]

Would you like Ned Yost to tell everybody Ben Sheets is doomed for failure and is too frail to pitch on the major league level?

 

I'm sure the players would appreciate that kind of confidence coming from their manager.

 

If you're just nitpicking about the wording, I don't think it's fair to pick on Ned for making a baseball-manager-statement, especially when we all know what he means by it.

[lukevan]

Damn Ben Sheets parents for passing on genes susceptible to vestibular neuritis!

 

I think Yost and Benny should form their own support group. They could invite Kevin Mench, Johnny Estrada and Brady Clark.

[RyDogg66]

So we are breaking down a pitchers DNA?? Come on...

[brewcrew00]

Can we put all this Yost junk into one thread this year? PLEASE? It gets to tiring to come on here for good baseball talk to always see "garbage" like this being posted. Just as the vent thread, I am voting for a Ned thread.

[1992casey]

This is really a Sheets thread. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[RyDogg66]

I have looked into the heart of Ben Sheets's DNA, and I have seen weakness.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"Can we put all this Yost junk into one thread this year? PLEASE? It gets to tiring to come on here for good baseball talk to always see "garbage" like this being posted."

 

Garbage? That's harsh.

 

JBriggs made a salient point about Ben Sheets. He provided examples which imply that too often, Ben gets hurt performing the normal, everyday activities his job places on him, which isn't good. If my uncle the mailman had bad knees and couldn't walk, or if Lary Sorenson wanted to drive a truck for a living, they'd have a tough time staying healthy and available to execute their duties.

 

His DNA angle didn't seem like chromosome analysis, just a little way to help support his discussion point. Jeez!

[brewcrew00]

I put "garbage" in quotes for a reason. Not because that's what I though of his post, but rather because that's all threads ever turn into, especially during the season.

[rluzinski]

It's the fact that completely random phenomena can still exhibit strong patterns that fools many to falsely identify truly random occurrences. Ironic, isn't it?

 

There are plenty of examples of athletes that have never previously gotten injured all of a sudden have a rash of injuries. There are plenty of examples of athletes who had a rash of injuries early in their career go on to finish their career injury-free. Does Sheets have a higher probability of getting hurt this year than an average 29 year old ML starting pitcher? Not sure anyone else does, either. Yost has his opinion and everyone else has theirs. My opinion is, "I don't know." Injury prone or not, I hope the Brewers at least get 175+ innings out of him in 2008.

[owbc]

I don't even want to see what happens if Sheets loses on Opening Day...

[1992casey]

I put "garbage" in quotes for a reason. Not because that's what I though of his post, but rather because that's all threads ever turn into, especially during the season.

I think a lot of us shudder when we see Ned's name in a thread title. But after taking a deep breath and reading the lead, it's apparent that there should be no reason to discuss bullpen usage, McClung/Pujols, how Turnbow was used, etc. (The Yost's last shot thread is available for that.)

 

Some people may think "been there, done that" on Sheets' injuries, too. But there's no current thread on that topic, and Ned's comments make it timely again.

[JohnBriggs12]

Would you like Ned Yost to tell everybody Ben Sheets is doomed for failure and is too frail to pitch on the major league level?

 

I'm sure the players would appreciate that kind of confidence coming from their manager.

 

If you're just nitpicking about the wording, I don't think it's fair to pick on Ned for making a baseball-manager-statement, especially when we all know what he means by it.

It concerns me is that the organization has not come to terms with the reality that their star pitcher has proven to be somewhat frail and to expect full seasons out of him is being at the least very optimistic. I wouldn't expect them to express that publically but at the same time I would hope they wouldn't insult my intelligence with such remarks every February.

 

He used the word "luck". I think that's misleading though I'll acknowlegde that Yost isn't the first manager to speak in those terms. If all he would have said was Ben looks and feels fine now, that would have been sufficient.

[Oldcity]

I didn't take this post to be another "Sheets is always injured" thread as much as just pointing out a goofy comment by Ned. Not sure if I'm right about that, but "pattern of bad luck" is just a goofy thing to say.

[Ennder]

Ben gets hurt performing the normal, everyday activities his job places on him, which isn't good. If my uncle the mailman had bad knees and couldn't walk, or if Lary Sorenson wanted to drive a truck for a living, they'd have a tough time staying healthy and available to execute their duties.

 

But if your uncle the mailman had a knee injury that he recovered from, then later fell down on a really icy day and then got bit in the hand by a dog would you think that he was more likely than other mailmen to get hurt the next year?

 

I mean this whole thing is always so overblown. Sheets pitched way too much in 2004, Sheets got hurt in 2005 with an injury that they said would take 9-12 months to heal. 6 months later they tried to pitch him and he aggravated the same injury, 12 months after the original injury Sheets is healthy again as expected. The next year Sheets is healthy other than some minor injuries that could have happened to absolutely any pitcher in baseball. This means he's frail? I guess I just don't get it.

 

Then again I didn't get why people thought Jenkins would get hurt again or Hardy. There are chronic type injuries that you expect to repeat like Harden, Prior, Burnett etc have and Sheets is 1.5 years removed from any problems like that. Then there are things like tweaking a groin or jamming a finger or getting hit by a ball or colliding with someone that is just part of baseball and has very little to do with the player involved (except some cases of totally reckless players).

[jason21nl]

well I guess we'll see. If Sheets can make it through the year without landing on the DL then he can kick they injury prone tag. If he finds his way on the DL a couple times, for whatever reason, the injury prone tag is going to stick with him.

[DrWood]

OH MY GOSH! I just realized that the constellations aren't the result of creative interpretation of the position of the stars but actually represent a fixed and predictable pattern that was preordained....and it must be preordained by the same powers that control my horoscope.

 

ahem...I guess what I mean to say is a "pattern of bad luck" isn't an oxymoron.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"But if your uncle the mailman had a knee injury that he recovered from, then later fell down on a really icy day and then got bit in the hand by a dog would you think that he was more likely than other mailmen to get hurt the next year?"

 

A fair analogy, Ennder. I see your point.

 

But not every mailman gets bitten by dogs, not every one of them goes on disability leave of absence after slipping on ice. They're supposed to be rare occurences. But our ace letter carrier keeeps getting them. Maybe if he avoided entering that yard with the Beware of Dog sign..if he side-stepped that icy patch! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

Say you have an expensive, but terrific mechanic you've found in your neighborhood. You need him to be there, but the shop was closed that day. The next time, he was there, and a 2nd time he came through. But a few months later, once more, he was away, and you were desperate and went to a lesser auto repair shop. Another time, missing, And another. It's not happening every time, of course, but it's human nature to get a little frustrated, and the next time, if you really need your Yugo fixed, you may look for a place that's as good or almost as good, as long as it's regularly open. Migod, my analogies are getting worse and worse!

 

"Sheets pitched way too much in 2004, Sheets got hurt in 2005 with an injury that they said would take 9-12 months to heal. 6 months later they tried to pitch him and he aggravated the same injury..."

 

Maybe a significant portion of the blame for the Broken Ben is the Brewers fault. It wouldn't surprise me. Maybe he breaks down more often than dozens of other starting pitchers, because he was impropely handled? Did all these back, finger, hamstring, shoulder...incidents come as a residual, cumulative effect?

[AdvantageSchneider]

It concerns me is that the organization has not come to terms with the reality that their star pitcher has proven to be somewhat frail and to expect full seasons out of him is being at the least very optimistic. I wouldn't expect them to express that publically but at the same time I would hope they wouldn't insult my intelligence with such remarks every February.

You don't think the organization has come to term with the reality that Sheets is somewhat frail? How many starting pitchers would you expect them to carry if they came to terms with that fact? 12? Because by my count we've got 7-8 major league starters, due in some part b/c we expect Sheets to not make all his starts. I don't think the organziation is sticking their heads in the sand at all about Sheets' health. They are doing their due diligence.

 

Had they tried to sign Sheets to an extension this winter like some had suggested, that would be being in denial about Sheets' injury history.

 

 

(cleaned up code --1992)

[Ennder]

Maybe a significant portion of the blame for the Broken Ben is the Brewers fault. It wouldn't surprise me. Maybe he breaks down more often than dozens of other starting pitchers, because he was impropely handled? Did all these back, finger, hamstring, shoulder...incidents come as a residual, cumulative effect?

 

Don't get me wrong, it is as much Sheets fault. Every time the coach comes out to talk to him he pushes hard to go deeper into the game so he is as much at fault for those pitch counts as the manager. Starting 2005 when he had problems pitching in spring training he lobbied to pitch in the world baseball classic. The finger had nothing to do with his other injuries, it is just one of those things that happened. I can't imagine there is anything a pitcher can do to stop from getting a jammed finger other than not playing guitar hero. The back was a problem before they abused him, he pitched with the bad back all of 2004. The shoulder is the only injury I think can be blamed on over usage.

 

I'd be more dubious about the groin tweek if it hadn't been raining hard while it happened. The hamstring bothers me just because it was during a warmup and not while actually running the bases.

 

Do I think Sheets is more likely to be hurt than a typical pitcher? Yes I do. Just not nearly as much as others seem to think.

Do I think all pitchers have a roughly 25-30% chance to get hurt every year? Yes I do, other than a few exceptional guys.

Do I think hard throwers are more likely to get hurt than soft tossers? Yes I do, puts Sheets at more of a risk.

Will I be surprised if Sheets pitches 32 games this year? Not one bit, his arm wasn't abused last year and he is now far enough removed from the major injury that I am more worried about his stats slipping last year than the injury.

[Brewguru2]

As a couple of other posters said, this is a garbage thread.

 

What is the manager of the team supposed to say? You can't say that you don't expect anything out of Sheets. You can't say he's a jaker. What is Yost supposed to say, Mr. Briggs, because you seem to know it all??? If you look at his injuries, other than the hamstring, everything else has been the unique variety. One of the injuries has never been documented for another MLB pitcher in history.

 

The organization MAY have come to terms with your reality that the star pitcher can't stay healthy. But what they say publically and what they say privately are 2 different things, as they should be. If you remember back to the early '90s, every year the Brewers SAID they were counting on Ted Higuera.

 

The only way the Brewers have "insulted your inteligence" is because your intelligence is limited because it seems you take everything you read at face value.

[1992casey]

The lead post got into two things: the oxymoron and Ben's injury history. Whether one agrees with Ned or not, 'pattern of bad luck' is amusing.

 

By the way, rather than excerpting, I deleted the long nested quote from reply #21. The post is clear on its own.

[brewers19]

Brewguru2, I think it would be best that you take a step back from this for a little while. I have no idea why you're getting so worked up over this, but there's really no reason for you to personally attack other posters. It's against the site guidelines and will earn you a strike if it goes any further.

[Fatter than Joey]

I think the interesting thing about this is that JB used the word "first" -- As if we are to expect more oxymorons from Yost, I mean it could feasibly happen (like Chad Moeller hitting for the cycle) -- that Yost makes more head-scratching statements that defy logic and sensibility and even coherency -- but is it actually plausible?