Does Brian Roberts really put the Cubs over the top?

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

According to this article, it does:

 

Orioles' Roberts has reappeared on Cubs' wish list

 

 

(fixed link --1992)

[BrewCrewForever]

I don't think so. He is a nice 2B, but I think if Weeks has the kind of year we all expect him to 100% healthy he is a much better player.

[trwi7]

Link doesn't work for me.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Try it again. It should work now. Sorry!

[trwi7]

Works now.

[1992casey]

Both Tuesdays and I fixed it. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

At any rate, it works.

[berniebrewer4life]

Unless roberts can pitch too, no, he doesn't put em over the top.

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Roberts would probably be an upgrade over DeRosa because of his speed and OBP, but I don't consider him a player that puts a team over the top. This writer is trying to make it seem like getting him makes or breaks their season.

[Ennder]

I'd say Roberts is a good 2-3 win upgrade for that team so it certainly would be a big deal. Now they might lose a win somewhere by dealing away pitching depth etc as well.

[Beer and Braunies]

Other than 2005 when Roberts got some MVP votes, he has had only one other season with an OPS above .800. His career BA/SLG/OBP are pretty similar to DeRosa, so it really isn't much of an upgrade at all. Last year was actually an above average season for Roberts, so I wouldn't expect it again this year.

[Ennder]

He is a better defensive 2B than DeRosa, DeRosa had a career last year. Signing Roberts also allows DeRosa to be the backup at 3B when ARamis has his yearly injury. DeRosa also will see some time at SS replacing a weak bat .

[valpocrewsader]

Top 3 in VORP for 2B, 50 stolen bases out of 57 attempts, top notch defense ... potential to move Soriano out of the leadoff spot ... he would definitely help them a bunch. Over the top? That all depends on where one thinks they're at right now. If you think they're about even with the Brewers, it likely puts them over the top; you could argue, though, that it takes an already over-the-top Cubs team and separates them further from the pack. Or I suppose you could make a case that it still won't be enough to beat out a powerhouse like the Brewers with a history of excellence and luck on their side. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

 

(fixed the blue --1992)

[jjfanec]

Roberts scares me because he allows them to move Soriano down the lineup. Soriano not batting first will help this team. Dealing Marshall, Gallagher, and Murton would hurt their team's depth and their pitching in the long run in my opinion. Zambrano doesn't seem like he will age well, Marquis just is not that good, so outside of Hill and Lilly (who is 32) they do not have much depth in my opinion. I guess they will have the money to sign pitchers in the future but that is a risk. If they have to give up Marshall that guarantees two of either Marquis, Trachsel, or Dempster in the rotation and I see that as good for us. I guess I dont know a ton about their young pitchers but who else do they have?

[RobertR]

It's hard to say that Roberts helps the Cubs until you know what they give up to get him. Like all teams the Cubs will likely need to tap into their pitching depth this season and giving up a couple of pitchers would hurt them. I also think they'd be fairly foolish to deal Pie at this stage of his career.

 

I'd be a lot more concerned if they were talking about upgrading SS instead of 2B. Theriot is the guy that should be the supersub, not an everyday starter.

 

Robert

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

Roberts is definitely better than DeRosa because even though they put up a similar OPS, Roberts steals a ton of bases and plays a lot better defense. I agree with the scariest part of the Cubs getting Roberts is they will move Soriano down the lineup. The Cubs would have had 3-4 more wins in 2007 with Soriano down the order.

[TooLiveBrew]

I also think they'd be fairly foolish to deal Pie at this stage of his career.

 

If the deal meant the Cubs would send Pie to the AL, I'd actually probably root for it to happen (long-term).

[crewcrazy]

Roberts scares me because he allows them to move Soriano down the lineup. Soriano not batting first will help this team.

On paper, it looks like it would help the Cubs a ton, but teams have tried to move him down in the order for short periods of time the past couple years and he didn't produce as well. It could be a psychological thing (Soriano himself says he hits better when he leads off, so it could be a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts), or it could just be freakishly small sample sizes. Hitting outside of the leadoff spot is something he hasn't really done since coming over to the National League.

 

Just for fun, here's a look at what he's done the past few years in terms of where he hits:

 

2007 (Chicago)

 

		G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	K	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS
Batting 1st		125	542	92	167	40	4	33	69	28	121	18	6	.308	.345	.579	.924
Batting 3rd		7	28	5	5	1	1	0	1	3	6	1	0	.179	.258	.286	.544
Batting 5th		2	8	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	3	0	0	.000	.000	.000	.000
Batting 8th		1	1	0	1	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1.000	1.000	2.000	3.000

2006 (Washington)

		G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	K	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS
Batting 1st		131	541	102	159	38	2	39	81	58	130	38	16	.294	.368	.588	.956
Batting 3rd		18	72	12	11	1	0	4	7	7	23	1	1	.153	.235	.333	.568
Batting 4th		1	4	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	2	0	0	.000	.000	.000	.000
Batting 5th		8	29	5	9	2	0	3	7	2	5	2	0	.310	.375	.690	1.065
Batting 8th		1	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.000	.000	.000	.000

2005 (Texas)

		G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	K	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS
Batting 1st		22	98	16	27	8	0	4	7	4	20	4	0	.276	.301	.480	.781
Batting 4th		9	37	3	8	2	0	2	3	2	11	2	0	.216	.250	.432	.682
Batting 5th		123	497	82	134	32	2	30	93	27	93	24	2	.270	.315	.523	.838
Batting 6th		1	4	1	1	1	0	0	1	0	1	0	0	.250	.250	.500	.750
Batting 9th		1	1	0	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	1.000	1.000	1.000	2.000

2004 (Texas)

		G	AB	R	H	2B	3B	HR	RBI	BB	K	SB	CS	AVG	OBP	SLG	OPS
Batting 1st		16	67	10	18	7	0	5	6	4	9	2	1	.269	.310	.597	.907
Batting 3rd		116	485	61	136	21	4	22	78	27	102	11	4	.280	.328	.476	.804
Batting 5th		11	47	6	13	3	0	1	7	2	10	5	0	.277	.300	.404	.704
Batting 6th		2	9	0	3	1	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	.333	.333	.444	.778

[GenoSeligPrieb]

To address the question? Sadly yes.

 

The Cubs already won the division, they made what looks to be a significant outfield upgrade in Fukudome over Old Cliff/Jacque Jones, and unfortunately, they'll keep Pac-Manning up more talent by bringing in a terrific leadoff hitter, with blazing speed, a solid glove, and a great ability to get on base, in Roberts.

 

This also moves Soriano to an RBI slot, where those solo shots can turn into 2 or 3 run homers.

 

This acquisition can add 3-4 games to an already scary team. And don't forget, we plan to pee away 3-5 games on managerial decisions. (Sorry, couldn't resist! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif )

[jjfanec]

I am surprised to see how Soriano's stats drop down the line-up but Robert's would give them a better OBP guy at the one spot. That lineup would be scary but I really dont think it is better than ours. Obviously this isnt probably how the lineups will look but I don't see a huge upgrade for them over us if any. I know the Cubs were looking at getting Marlon Byrd as well, but I am wondering what they would trade to get him if they trade for Roberts as well.

Roberts - Weeks

Fukudome - Cameron

Lee - Braun

Ramirez - Fielder

Soriano - Hart

Pie - Hall

Soto - Hardy

Theriot - Kendall

 

I think any trade depletes their rotation's depth. Lieber will have to be in their rotation with Marquis. So they will have a nice 1,2,3 with Zambrano, Lilly and Hill, but is that better than Sheets, Gallardo, Suppan. The 4 and 5 spots are where I think we have the huge advantage with Villy, Cappy, Bush or Parra over Lieber, Marquis, Dempster or Traschel. I would take any of our four over any of there four possibilities. I think the Cubs and Brewers match up pretty evenly actually. It should be a fun season.

[Oldcity]

I'm just glad Roberts isn't a shortstop. I'm really surprised they haven't looked to upgrade that position, which is clearly their weakest starting spot. I suppose DeRosa would play short some, but I doubt his defense would be acceptable enough to play him there full time.

[TooLiveBrew]

Woe is me... the Cubs are the runaway favorites because they improved SO much...

 

If only the Brewers had made some offseason moves that improved them drastically from 2007. Oh wait...

 

Let's not forget about the changes that've been made by the Brewers - actually of bigger impact than anything the Cubs have done. If the Cubs get Roberts, perhaps then they've improved as much as the Brewers have this offseason.

[beckyjean69]

"If only the Brewers had made some offseason moves that improved them drastically from 2007. Oh wait..."

 

I dont buy the "improvements" the Brewers made in the off-season making them a drastically better team. My honest opinion is that they did a good job for rebuilding a team in 2004. Torres has been in decline the past two years, Mota has been declining, Gagne failed big time in his role with the Sox, and what he did with the Rangers wasnt all that impressive, and I also dont buy Kendall being this great handler of pitchers that will ramp up the performance of the starting staff, top that off with his lackluster offense, I just dont see these moves as a big impression.

 

I think that Riske is a very good pick up and that he will be a great contributor. I agree that Weeks should finally break out of the curse he seems to have been under the last few years with injuries and slumps, and if Braun and Fielder did simply what they did last year (tough to top), the Brewers are going to be in great shape.

 

But Roberts gives them one of the best 1 through 4 hitters in all of baseball. He gets on base, he steals a lot of bases, hits well, plays good defense, and he definitely "puts them over the top." The big piece in the deal seems to be Marshall, who if they lose doesnt really hurt their starting pitching depth, and Pie would probably be a liability in the starting lineup.

[TooLiveBrew]

I dont buy the "improvements" the Brewers made in the off-season making them a drastically better team.

 

This is exactly the mentality I was addressing. You don't "buy" them? What's there to buy? The team has been improved all-around, without question. Gagne's tenure in Tex. was far better than 'not all that impressive' - especially considering the Ballpark in Arlington is a hitter's park. Torres & Mota are here to throw the Spurling & Aquino innings. Kendall will be a big upgrade in OBP, while being a lateral move defensively - at worst. How do you not mention the biggest acquisition in Cameron?

 

Roberts is not one of the best 1-4 hitters in the game. He's a good #1 or #2 type. He gets on base very well. Pie will not be a liability, Marshall is a marginal 'prospect', and I think that's one reason why this deal hasn't gotten done yet - Marshall alone isn't any reason for any team to trade a player like Roberts. And especially not Angelos, whose favorite player is reportedly Brian.

 

The Brewers have improved their team more than the Cubs have improved theirs... but why do people act like there's this un-climb-able mountain down at Wrigley?

[beckyjean69]

"Roberts is not one of the best 1-4 hitters in the game"

 

I meant that with Roberts, the Cubs as a team have one of the best leadoff through cleanup battings orders in all of baseball......Roberts/Soriano/Ramirez/Lee, and dont forget Fokudome....he might wind up being a pretty decent #5 hitter. I expect him to hit 20+ HR and hit around .270.

 

Yes Cameron was a nice upgrade defensively. But you only get the guy for 85% of the year, maybe 75% by the time the year is over. I would have much rather had the good defense, younger age, and better offense offered, in the affordable Aaron Rowand.

 

Dont you think that Gagne will be a big downgrade from Cordero? I think that is where there is going to be a slip in the standings....

 

Dont get me wrong, as of now, before looking at bench and bullpen, I have the Brewers as the division winners by a game over the Reds and a few over the Cubs, but if the Cubs get Roberts that would all change.

[jjfanec]

Rowand got 5 years 60 million. I dont think that is affordable and he is 30 years old so not young. Yes Rowand five years younger than Cameron but Cameron got a one year deal for 7 million.