Riske - like an extra coach?

[ozzybourne]

anakin--he did have big innings in 2006, at 3 levels mostly as a starter i believe--but if he starts all year, that is a big increase. lets say maybe to 175. i think he has the potential to be pretty good. you may be right about the trade thing, although because of the 3 guys who are getting paid that you mention is why cv may end up in the pen.

 

i hope it doesn't happen. i would like to see sheets, gallardo, suppan, cv, and cappy with cv the 5th, bush in pen, parra in aaa and vargas gone. i am really high on getting cv (and keepiking parra as a starter) into the starting rotation--remember capellan? a can't miss starter who has bounced around ml bullpens for several years ever since the brewers put him there? i would hate to see cv or parra end up with the same fate.

I dont think Cappllean was ever considered a cant miss Starter.....he was always thought of as a Future closer.... he did not start at all until last year when the Brewers finally stretched him out in Triple A...... now Jorge Dela Rosa he was suppsoe to be that really good Starter with #2 potential...

 

Now with CV you guys are basing this Ceiling projection on 12 total starts..... he never did much in the minors... in fact as of 2 years ago at this time he was not even in the top 30 in the Brewers Org.... 6 good starts in 2007 does not mean anything.... It just means that teams have not seen enough of him yet...

cappllean was a cant miss starter in the braves organization--we traded kolb for him. and cv has the stats in minors. we'll see

[TooLiveBrew]

There's no way a RP like Kolb lands you a top-flight SP prospect on his own.

[endaround]

I don't get why you are so hung up about Villanueva's ranking after 2005. The difference between the number 15th prospect and the number 40th prospect of an organization isn't that great and depends a lot on how someone values tools versus major league readiness versus injury susceptability.

[ozzybourne]

There's no way a RP like Kolb lands you a top-flight SP prospect on his own.

anakin--look it up. after the 2004 season in which kolb had 39 saves and a 2.98 era, he was traded for the braves top pitching prospect, jose capellan who had started 60 of 65 games in the minors.

[erbacaine04]

anakin--he did have big innings in 2006, at 3 levels mostly as a starter i believe--but if he starts all year, that is a big increase. lets say maybe to 175. i think he has the potential to be pretty good. you may be right about the trade thing, although because of the 3 guys who are getting paid that you mention is why cv may end up in the pen.

 

i hope it doesn't happen. i would like to see sheets, gallardo, suppan, cv, and cappy with cv the 5th, bush in pen, parra in aaa and vargas gone. i am really high on getting cv (and keepiking parra as a starter) into the starting rotation--remember capellan? a can't miss starter who has bounced around ml bullpens for several years ever since the brewers put him there? i would hate to see cv or parra end up with the same fate.

I dont think Cappllean was ever considered a cant miss Starter.....he was always thought of as a Future closer.... he did not start at all until last year when the Brewers finally stretched him out in Triple A...... now Jorge Dela Rosa he was suppsoe to be that really good Starter with #2 potential...

 

Now with CV you guys are basing this Ceiling projection on 12 total starts..... he never did much in the minors... in fact as of 2 years ago at this time he was not even in the top 30 in the Brewers Org.... 6 good starts in 2007 does not mean anything.... It just means that teams have not seen enough of him yet...

cappllean was a cant miss starter in the braves organization--we traded kolb for him. and cv has the stats in minors. we'll see

 

I know who we traded for him....and at the time he was not even in the top 100 prospect list.... He made the list in 2005 in the Brewers System... ranked 25th and he was NEVER thought of as a starter in the Brewers system.....Below is a report on CV 2 years ago... when he was not ranked in the top 30 for the Brewers Org....I think that assesment is dead on even for today.... He needs to be PERFECT in his placement or else he will be hit hard and getting all "wet" over 12 ML starts..6 last year is setting you up for dissapointment. The Fact is he has to have great placement and in 6 starts when people are facing a unkown pitcher you can get away with bad placement....but I just dont see how you can say he has a ceiling as a #3 starter......I like CV..but I am being realistic on his talent level

 

Carlos Villanueva, rhp, Brewers

Born: Nov. 28, 1983. B-T: B-R. Ht.: 6-2. Wt.: 190. Signed: Dominican Republic, 2002. Signed by: Rick Ragazzo (Giants).

 

The Brewers flipped Wayne Franklin and Leo Estrella to the Giants in spring training 2004 in exchange for Villanueva and Glenn Woolard. While Woolard had a solid run in 2004, Villanueva emerged as the better prospect with a dominating 2005 season in the high Class A Florida State League. He led the FSL with a 2.32 ERA and the Milwaukee system with 138 strikeouts, but he didn't do it with overwhelming stuff. He'll have to maintain fine command to continue his success at higher levels. Villanueva uses his fastball well, throwing strikes with it and generally keeping it down in the strike zone. His fastball velocity varies, at times sitting at a fringe-average 88-90 mph and at other times dropping to 84-88. His curveball and slider are just so-so pitches with little to differentiate them other than velocity, but he generally commands them well. His changeup makes him a prospect. It's a plus pitch that he has a real feel for, and he'll throw it any time in the count, allowing him to pitch backwards and making his other pitches more effective. Villanueva got hit hard after a promotion to Double-A Huntsville, in part because his conditioning is mediocre and he ran out of gas. He doesn't have much margin for error, but Villanueva has a chance to be a back-of-the-rotation starter. He'll open 2006 back in Double-A.

 

http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/features/06030331stteam.html

 

[ozzybourne]

are you tailgating already today? my trade info was on capellan, not cv.

 

but on cv--he will be 24 going into this season, with 2 years part time mlb service. your report is from 2 years ago--cant he improve between ages 22-24? did tom glavine or maddux have explosive stuff? or did they exist with great control--it can happen.

[ozzybourne]

are you tailgating already today? my trade info was on capellan, not cv.

sorry about that--i had to reread to realize you were talking about both pitchers after each other.

 

capellan was still considered- at least by the braves and brewers- to be a high potential guy. and maybe he should have stayed a sterter.

[erbacaine04]

are you tailgating already today? my trade info was on capellan, not cv.

 

but on cv--he will be 24 going into this season, with 2 years part time mlb service. your report is from 2 years ago--cant he improve between ages 22-24? did tom glavine or maddux have explosive stuff? or did they exist with great control--it can happen.

 

Glavine and Maddux had plus pitches besides just a change up.....and while they did not have the Fastball they had more than a so-so or average breaking ball.... and then still had wicked control....it can happen.... but CV and his "stuff" make him a #5 starter which is what I said to start this thread..... and which is what I am defending...

[endaround]

Capellan was too thought of as a potential starter by the Brewers. He was taken out of starting after he threw a hissy fit about not closing.

[erbacaine04]

are you tailgating already today? my trade info was on capellan, not cv.

sorry about that--i had to reread to realize you were talking about both pitchers after each other.

 

capellan was still considered- at least by the braves and brewers- to be a high potential guy. and maybe he should have stayed a sterter.

 

Oh yeah and I had high hopes for him when we were able to pawn off the one year wonder Kolb for him...he was moved to BP because we had better options in the rotation at the time.... Mike Jones, Manny Parra, Henderickson, JDLR....and a few others I cant think of right now.... but I saw him as our Closer for the 2007 season back when we traded for him. and saddly he got lazy and estrada-esque and back talked and bad mouthed people.... so good riddence......

[TooLiveBrew]

anakin--look it up. after the 2004 season in which kolb had 39 saves and a 2.98 era, he was traded for the braves top pitching prospect, jose capellan who had started 60 of 65 games in the minors.

 

My point had nothing to do with how he was acquired (& I know what the deal was), just that if he truly were a top-shelf SP prospect, no organization worth its salt is going to part with that for just a RP - I don't care how many saves a guy had in one season.

[ozzybourne]

Now with CV you guys are basing this Ceiling projection on 12 total starts..... he never did much in the minors...

 

No, I'm not just using MLB numbers. And as trwi mentioned, he's done plenty in the minors to warrant praise. I'd say his numbers in MLB thus far have reinforced the success he had in the minors. As previously mentioned, I only think his BBs from last year are a concern - there's not much else to worry about, imo, with Carlos.

agreed.

 

my only concern is how he will be used. last year era 2.06 with 4 quality starts out of 5 when brewers were still in race, and a 4.76 era as reliever. almost a K an inning (99 in 114). nice problems to have for a change brewer fans.

[ozzybourne]

anakin--look it up. after the 2004 season in which kolb had 39 saves and a 2.98 era, he was traded for the braves top pitching prospect, jose capellan who had started 60 of 65 games in the minors.

 

My point had nothing to do with how he was acquired (& I know what the deal was), just that if he truly were a top-shelf SP prospect, no organization worth its salt is going to part with that for just a RP - I don't care how many saves a guy had in one season.

id rather talk about CV, but i remember this trade was talked about quite a bit--braves desperately needed a closer (smoltz returning to rotation) and brewers were trying to add starting depth. the trade did not work out for either.

 

12/12/04 atlanta constitution - "The braves are moving closer john smoltz back to the starting rotation and trading their top pitching prospect to make it work." ".....the braves agreed to trade flamethrowing prospect jose capellan to get closer dan kolb"

 

whatever.

 

 

[TooLiveBrew]

Fair enough. I don't remember ever hearing that he was their top (pitching) prospect, but those darn facts seem to stand in my way here...

[ozzybourne]

my laser holding friend--back to the point that started this exchange. we agree that cv may have a bright future with the crew. do you think starting him in the pen or bouncing him back and forth could hamper him. i do, that's why i brought up that bit about capellan.

 

i hope that if dm really believes he has mlb starter stuff that he keeps him in the rotation to figure it out. if this works out, we'll have a very strong staff.

[MillerParkSouth]

speaking of Capellan and Hendrickson, does anyone know what those two are up to these days?

[erbacaine04]

The thing is you tend to always start out young pitchers in the Pen to limit their work loads and their innings.... look at what the Dodgers did with Billingsly and the yanks are going to be doing with Joba to start off this year again....

 

That was the plan with Yovanni Gallardo after Cappy got back from injury.... use him in the Pen until probably August... then have him start the final month and a half or so... not having to worry about inning restrictions. That all changed when Sheets went down.

 

The Thing is with CV... he does not have the stuff that our other pitchers did..... so the Bullpen was the option for him...

 

Vargas has better stuff than CV...well at least a better Fastball...and I think his breaking ball is better to...

Bush is #3 or so Ceiling guy... and while he does not have an overpowering Fastball tops out at 91... he does have decent other pitches and has excellent k/bb rate

 

So what did you want to see happen.....

 

this year I think CV should get his shot in the rotation along with Cappy... and Parra should be in triple A...just to limit his innings and strenghten his arm... I want him to be able to come up around the Break and give us another great SP option to go along with Sheets and Yo...

[erbacaine04]

speaking of Capellan and Hendrickson, does anyone know what those two are up to these days?

Capplean was signed by the Rockies a month or so ago.... and wasnt Henderickson traded to the Royals...for a Catcher....or was that the JDLR

[areacodes]

speaking of Capellan and Hendrickson, does anyone know what those two are up to these days?

Capplean was signed by the Rockies a month or so ago.... and wasnt Henderickson traded to the Royals...for a Catcher....or was that the JDLR

Yup, he was traded for Maxim St. Pierre who was a catcher from the Royals.

 

[TooLiveBrew]

my laser holding friend--back to the point that started this exchange. we agree that cv may have a bright future with the crew. do you think starting him in the pen or bouncing him back and forth could hamper him. i do, that's why i brought up that bit about capellan.

 

I honestly don't think the bullpen-rotation shuffle has/had any effect on Villy. I think you can see that pretty clearly from 2007 - but that's just mho.

 

 

The Thing is with CV... he does not have the stuff that our other pitchers did..... so the Bullpen was the option for him...

 

Vargas has better stuff than CV...well at least a better Fastball...and I think his breaking ball is better to...

Bush is #3 or so Ceiling guy... and while he does not have an overpowering Fastball tops out at 91... he does have decent other pitches and has excellent k/bb rate

I just can't go on pure stuff for pitchers - and Vargas is a perfect example of why. Imho Vargas negates any advantage he may (or may not) have on his FB by nibbling so much. After that, Villy's CU is a better second pitch than anything Vargas has (again, just mho). Beyond that, I'd guess the differences (if any) in other pitches is pretty much negligible. I don't think any lack of stuff (perceived or real) played a role in Villy being in the bullpen last year.

[crewcrazy]

speaking of Capellan and Hendrickson, does anyone know what those two are up to these days?

Capellan's deal with the Rockies was for the league minimum, if not a full-blown Minor League deal, IIRC. Hendrickson spent last year in AAA Omaha, and he went 11-5 with a 4.12 ERA in 27 appearances (18 starts). His K/BB numbers were still pretty bad, though...66 K's compared to 54 BB's. He also had a WHIP of 1.40. At this point the Royals are probably hoping he can be an average middle reliever some day.

[ILuvDaBush]

Capellan was only their top pitching prospect at the time because they just traded Dan Meyer, their original top pitching prospect, to the A's for Tim Hudson. And he was always considered to be a relief pitcher because he only had a two-pitch repertoire with minimal control. And when we traded for him, it was said he "touched 100" while I only saw him hit the 96-97 range when he reared. As for CV, a young pitcher who can make hitters look silly with his changeup is a phenom to me. We shall call it a subjective definition.