2008 Vent Thread (part 1)

[TuesdaysWithRillo]

I wonder if Harvey Kuenn would have held Rollie Fingers out of the game if he had pitched 3 straight games before in a save situation.

[PKBadger]

I wonder if Harvey Kuenn would have held Rollie Fingers out of the game if he had pitched 3 straight games before in a save situation.

 

We know that Terry Francona would have held back Papelbon. Let's look at a similar situation from 2007, almost 1 year ago to the day:

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20070421&content_id=1921707&vkey=news_bos&fext=.jsp&c_id=bos

Francona then quickly acknowledged that after saving the last two games in Toronto this week, the fireballing Papelbon was not available for Friday's opener with the Yankees.

"It's important to close a game," Francona said. "The way we won -- not having Pap available or not wanting to Pap to be available -- is good for our staff, good for our team. To win a game like that against that team is very helpful. It'll help down the road."

[clancyphile]

5-4 road trip with Weeks, Braun, and Fielder slumping, a third-string center-fielder, and a starter out until today.

 

This 11-7 record isn't that bad, if you ask me.

 

Gagne had thrown 20, 19, and 11 pitches each of his previous outings. The last outing had been 1-2-3, the other he came in to bail out Riske. who else do you send out, Turnbow? He tends to blow up sometimes. Riske had already had a rough outing. Mota had gone two. Shouse had given up a homer. Stetter had already pitched two today.

[trwi7]

Gagne had thrown 20, 19, and 11 pitches each of his previous outings. The last outing had been 1-2-3, the other he came in to bail out Riske.

If Ned was paying attention to the game yesterday he would've realized that Gagne had lost a few miles per hour on his fastball and it was the exact same situation today. He was hitting 90-91 instead of 93-94. Gagne should not have pitched unless it was absolutely necessary and with a 14 man staff it was not necessary.

 

Torres and Riske were easily better options than Gagne. Turnbow is debateable but the fact is he had two clearly better options and failed to use them.

[RU Rah Rah]

I was holding my breath yesterday when Gagne pitched his third game in a row. Running him out there again today was just tempting fate.

[giffted1]

If Ned was paying attention to the game yesterday he would've realized that Gagne had lost a few miles per hour on his fastball and it was the exact same situation today. He was hitting 90-91 instead of 93-94.

Gagne was hitting 92 on his fastball today. Either way, I doubt Yost or any other coach puts any stock in the stadium/TV guns.

[trwi7]

Gagne was hitting 92 on his fastball today. Either way, I doubt Yost or any other coach puts any stock in the stadium/TV guns.

 

He hit 92 once. He was 90-91 most of the time.

[Weirdos19]

What upsets me the most is that Gagne has looked great lately. All momentum is shot. Ned knows that Turnbow can't pitch back to back days, yet he sends a pitcher (who's elbow basically had to be put back together) in 4 games in a row.

 

Plus, the Cards are in town tomorrow and no Gagne for Monday, whether he blew today's game or not.

 

My other vent is that Rickie didn't try to bunt with Kendall on second and nobody out. If Kendall gets to third, JJ is sure to make decent contact after his bomb earlier in the game.

 

Elementary to most of us, but not to Ned.

[brewmann04]

your so right yost cost us a chance to use gange Tomorrow when the cards are in town ,Just plain stupid

[clancyphile]

If Weeks, Braun, and Fielder hit like they can hit, then the Cards get clubbed like baby seals, and no need for Gagne or anyone - unless you want to have McClung go for a three-inning save.

[1992casey]

I wonder if Harvey Kuenn would have held Rollie Fingers out of the game if he had pitched 3 straight games before in a save situation.

 

In 1982, Fingers pitched three days in a row one time. He pitched two days in a row six times. He never pitched four days in a row.

[ELCABALLO45]

Rotoworld says this...

Pitching for a fourth straight day, Eric Gagne blew his third save of the season and took a loss by allowing three runs to the Reds in the bottom of the 10th inning on Sunday.

Gagne entered with a 3-1 lead but quickly made it a tie game by allowing back-to-back homers to Edwin Encarnacion and Paul Bako. A walk, strikeout and single followed, and Ken Griffey Jr. ended the game with an RBI single to right. Gagne does have six saves since the Brewers have played in quite a few close games, but he also has an 8.22 ERA to go with the three blown chances. This one can be downplayed because he never should have been pitching four straight days in the first place. He's not in danger of losing the closing gig in the short-term, but continued struggles could lead to a change eventually.

[logan82]

1992casey wrote:

In 1982, Fingers pitched three days in a row one time. He pitched two days in a row six times. He never pitched four days in a row.

I don't really want to post this here as I am sure it belongs in a different thread, but I would venture to guess that Fingers was typically used more than an inning at a time unlike today's closers. He wasn't even really a closer. I think his defined role under the current flawed relief managing "book" would be more of a middle reliever. More akin to Torres and Riske.

[moofnelson]

1992casey wrote:

In 1982, Fingers pitched three days in a row one time. He pitched two days in a row six times. He never pitched four days in a row.

I don't really want to post this here as I am sure it belongs in a different thread, but I would venture to guess that Fingers was typically used more than an inning at a time unlike today's closers. He wasn't even really a closer. I think his defined role under the current flawed relief managing "book" would be more of a middle reliever. More akin to Torres and Riske.

I'll take it one step further, Fingers was a middle reliever and a closer all rolled into one. He had saves where he came into the game in the 7th inning.

Now, back to venting....Rickie Weeks, stop the pre-pitch, spastic twitching...IT DOESN'T WORK!!

[endaround]

1992casey wrote:

In 1982, Fingers pitched three days in a row one time. He pitched two days in a row six times. He never pitched four days in a row.

I don't really want to post this here as I am sure it belongs in a different thread, but I would venture to guess that Fingers was typically used more than an inning at a time unlike today's closers. He wasn't even really a closer. I think his defined role under the current flawed relief managing "book" would be more of a middle reliever. More akin to Torres and Riske.

Not by the time he was in Milwaukee. He averaged over 1 inning an outting but less than 2.

 

[Invader3K]

I don't think you can pin yesterday's loss on Yost. Gagne had a job, regardless of how many days he had pitched in a row, and he couldn't do it. Not at all. Also, how many opportunities to score did the Brewers blow yesterday? Overall, the offense has been pretty anemic, and games like yesterday are going to catch up to the Brewers if they don't start scoring more runs when they have chances to do so.

[Hammer]

Lets compare Gagne to one of us for a moment. Do you work better at the 4 hour mark of your shift or the 8 hour mark? It is proven that workers tail off dramatically after 7 (or 8) hours depending on the study that you believe. Asking Gagne to pitch the 4th day in a row was like asking a person to work 18 hours in my opinion. You are setting them up for a fall and that is what Yost did here. Gagne took the mound because "he had a job, regardless of how many days he had pitched in a row". But Yost has a job to make sure he gets productivity out of his players so using a guy that was gassed was not in the teams best interest.

[naivin]

1992casey wrote:

In 1982, Fingers pitched three days in a row one time. He pitched two days in a row six times. He never pitched four days in a row.

I don't really want to post this here as I am sure it belongs in a different thread, but I would venture to guess that Fingers was typically used more than an inning at a time unlike today's closers. He wasn't even really a closer. I think his defined role under the current flawed relief managing "book" would be more of a middle reliever. More akin to Torres and Riske.

I'll take it one step further, Fingers was a middle reliever and a closer all rolled into one. He had saves where he came into the game in the 7th inning.

 

I'll take it further still and say that is not necessarily a relevant comparison, as that team scored 87 runs a game, so there likely wasn't as many needs/opportunities. This team...well, as far as the vent portion of this thread goe, let's just say there is room for improvement where the offense is concerned.

[GoudaBrew]

It's frustrating that Ned hasn't learned a thing about managing a bullpen over the years.

 

My crazy-vent-solution:

Let Maddux make ALL pitching decisions from here on out, inlcuding who to start, when to pull the starter, who to have warming in the pen, who to put in from the pen, etc.

Hell, let Skaalen and Simmons make all the line-up, PHing, and bunting decisions too (Ned's made some head scratcher's in that regard this year, too).

Just let Ned stay in the dugout and look pretty. Someone has to make the coffee!

 

Ok, vent done, I feel better.

[JohnBriggs12]

"Let Maddux make ALL pitching decision".

 

What makes you think Maddux wasn't involved in yesterday's decision? Maddux often gets a pass. If he had qualms about using Gagne he should have spoken up. Obviously he didn't.

 

The Brewer line seems to be: "we ask all our relievers whether their ready that day". That's the problem right there. In my opinion, if you have to ask a guy that means you are not sure so don't use him. Never go by what a guy tells you. Rarely are players going to tell a manager they can't go. It goes against their nature as competitors.

 

As far as Fingers goes, he was primarily a one inning guy as a Brewer. He did go more than that occasionally if the situation dictated, but usually that meant coming in the 8th with men on base. The year the Brewers won in 1982, many games weren't close. If they won say 4 straight, generally at least 2 of those were blowouts.

[datrain711]

Lets compare Gagne to one of us for a moment. Do you work better at the 4 hour mark of your shift or the 8 hour mark? It is proven that workers tail off dramatically after 7 (or 8) hours depending on the study that you believe. Asking Gagne to pitch the 4th day in a row was like asking a person to work 18 hours in my opinion. You are setting them up for a fall and that is what Yost did here. Gagne took the mound because "he had a job, regardless of how many days he had pitched in a row". But Yost has a job to make sure he gets productivity out of his players so using a guy that was gassed was not in the teams best interest.

 

 

Why do we all assume Gagne was gassed? Isn't it possible he just made a few bad pitches?

[endaround]

Gagne was gassed because his velocity was down from where it was Thursday and Friday

[brewcrew00]

It's frustrating that Ned hasn't learned a thing about managing a bullpen over the years.

I don't mean to single you out, but it's frustrating that comments like this are still made. Ned involves all the coaches in each decision that is made from the lineup to pitching changes. You know that when Maddux picks up the phone, calls out to the pen, he asks Castro..."Is so and so available today?" Depending on response, decisions are made. I hate how Ned gets absolutely crushed by fans and media for every decision, where as not a single coach (other than the former Butch Wynegar) receives any of the same verbal punishment.

 

And for all who think Ted Simmons is the god send to get Ned out of here and step in to the Managers role, you have to realize he is having as much say as anybody this season on the bench. You guys all know he will not be shy to voice his opinion to Ned when he thinks something is wrong. I'm curious to what allows him the free pass?

[GoudaBrew]

Meh, don't take too much into my post. It was a vent. I don't truly condone anything I wrote. It was more of a knee jerk response to missing out on the sweep this weekend.

 

I'd have to agree that Maddux has this reputation that he can do no wrong. I think Bill Schroeder adds to this---he seems to talk about him like he's the greatest out there.

[kmcasper23]

Torres should have started the inning in the first place. Having said that the pitch that Encarnocion hit out was not a bad pitch. How often is a guy gonna hit a change up on the outside corner out in left field? The Bako homer was just a fluke. It wasn't a good pitch but how many homers does Bako have in his career like 5?