Jose Reyes or Hanley Ramirez?

[splitterpfj]

I'm not going to provide stats, etc, I'm providing a blank slate, please fill it in with thoughts of your own. Ramirez and Reyes are the same age, and they play the same position, if you were GM, which guy would you want most?

[ILuvDaBush]

I'll take Reyes, for the speed and defense. Not that Ramirez doesn't have speed but...

[TheBrewer]

If Hanley played for NY he'd have the hype that Reyes has. Ramirez outperformed Reyes offensively for the most part, only thing Reyes did more of was steal bags, but Hanley stole I wana say 40+?

 

I'd pick Ramirez. If he had to move to the OF, I might still pick him but I'd think about it more.

[GAME05]

very interesting question. i think i'd take Ramirez, but i could change my mind. yeah Reyes steals more, but i'm more interested in SB% than total number, because Reyes is probably just given the green light more often. total number of steals i list up there with RBIs, that it's more a matter of circumstance.

[Gopher74]

I'm not going to provide stats, etc, I'm providing a blank slate, please fill it in with thoughts of your own. Ramirez and Reyes are the same age, and they play the same position, if you were GM, which guy would you want most?

Absolutely no question I'd go with Hanley Ramirez. Hanley's a superstar player who in addition to having great speed...not Reyes type speed, but close to it with 51 SB's in the last two years, has exceptional power, and is just a fantastic hitter.

 

The guy's kinda hybrid of Arod and Reyes in my opinion. To be honest, given a choice between he and Miggy as the guy you're going to build around for the long haul, that's the guy I'd have chosen.

 

[411DoubleDown]

Isn't Ramirez coming off serious shoulder surgery this offseason? When healthy I would take Ramirez.

[ELCABALLO45]

Thats a GOOD question lol. But I would probably go with Han Ram.

[trwi7]

If I pick Ramirez can I move him to the outfield? Ah screw it, I'm taking Ramirez even if he stays at SS.

[Fatter than Joey]

Ramirez for me

[twobrewers]

I'm going with Reyes.

 

Ramirez is an absolute stud on offense. But if he was in NY, more people would also pay attention to how poor of a defender he is. Since he plays for Florida, no one really cares.

 

It's very close though. I guess I prefer Reyes because after watching the Brewers this past season - I value defense a little more now.

[Ennder]

I'd take Ramirez and move him to the OF most likely. Reyes had a 103 OPS+ last year, Ramirez had a 145 OPS+, that gap isn't going to be made up with Reyes' defense which is good but not great.

[jordanmuehl]

I think I'd take Ramirez, but it's close.

[pogokat]

Ramirez...

[colbyjack]

Ramirez by far for me.

[TooLiveBrew]

Since Ramirez probably isn't as bad on D as the 2007 stats indicate, and Reyes likely isn't as good on D as his 2007 numbers indicate, I'll go with the power that Ramirez provides as the tiebreaker.

[mothershipconnection]

Ramirez for me as well. Yep, he has defensive problems, but he's an absolute monster at the plate. Maybe you end up moving him to 2B or 3B, or even the OF, but the guy put up a .948 OPS at age 23 and is very athletic - you'll figure out a way to fit him in your everyday lineup.

[BradyCoo28]

That power bat of Ramirez is enough for me.

[jason21nl]

I don't know how many times I heard that Reyes is the most exciting player in baseball last year. That might be true because of the flat out speed he has, steals, doubles into triples etc...that being said, going with Ramirez. Chicks dig the power and long ball, and so does this guy.

[TooLiveBrew]

I don't know how many times I heard that Reyes is the most exciting player in baseball last year.

 

That'd be heavily skewed by how much/often you subjected yourself to listening to Joe Morgan. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[DrWood]

and the correct answer is....

It depends. It depends on the rest of your team. Reyes is going to stay at SS for his career, probably, but Ramirez is not, and he is roundly considered as wretched on D. so...if your team really needs a power bat, take ramirez, if your team really needs a SS for the next decade, take Reyes. Every team would take either, though, if they were available.

[ELCABALLO45]

Ramirez is an absolute stud on offense. But if he was in NY, more people would also pay attention to how poor of a defender he is. Since he plays for Florida, no one really cares.

Not disagreeing BUT Derek Jeter does not play great D and everyone acts like he is a stud on D.

[Gopher74]

and the correct answer is....

It depends. It depends on the rest of your team. Reyes is going to stay at SS for his career, probably, but Ramirez is not, and he is roundly considered as wretched on D. so...if your team really needs a power bat, take ramirez, if your team really needs a SS for the next decade, take Reyes. Every team would take either, though, if they were available.

I guess I don't understand why people think that Ramirez is SOOO awful at Shortstop that there's just no way he's going to stay there. He's really not that bad there. I mean, he's struggled, but he's 23 years old, and last year he had 24 errors and a .963 FP. I guess it seems as though people place him in the Braun category when it comes to defense. I don't think he's as bad as people think, and I think he could very easily become a above average defender.

 

And he can turn 2 a lot better than Reyes. In the last two years for Reyes, he's turned 72 and 88 DP's in 309 games for a total of 160 DP's. That's a huge edge.

Hanley Ramirez has turned 111 and 98 in the last two years, spanning 305 games for a total of 209 DP's.

 

Their RF's the last two years are;

Reyes 2006-3.86 2007-4.08

Hanley 2006-4.55 2007-4.27

Now before someone comes on and says, "yea, but look at these stats", sure, there is no question that Reyes right now is a better defensive shortstop. Rather, my point is the difference isn't AS BIG as people seem to think, and that at 23 years old, this kid should and in my opinion will improve. Maybe to the point of being a very good short stop, but at the very least to the point of being a solid one.

 

So, bottom line, given the fact that Hanley Ramirez has a HUGE edge offensively in my opinion, and that I think Reyes has the defensive edge, but not by nearly as much as people think, all things considered, I think Hanley Ramirez is a much better player.

 

We're talking about a leadoff hitter with an OBP of .354, and one of the best pure hitters in the game. I think by the end of this season, Hanley Ramirez is going to be considered to be in the class of Pujols, Cabrera, and Arod, and that type of offensive player who can play at least a passable SS is going to be one of the most valuable players in the game. More so than Miggy in the near future.

 

All that said, I do think that Reyes is going to get better, and he's the type of guy you can build a team around. He's hell on the base paths. He can almost manufacture a run all on his own. Walk/hit, get to first base, steal second, steal 3rd, sac fly. So yea, you're absolutely right, you can't go wrong with either player, I just happen to think that Hanley's on another level.

[danzig6767]

Ramirez and it's not really close, that kid has silly talent

 

Great job by the Marlins in scouting him. He struggled badly in AA, but they obviously saw his raw skills. Ramirez had the kind of season last year that i hoped we'd see from Weeks one day, just with less stolen bases.

[DrWood]

I haven't seen much of ramirez, so I'm just basing his defense on informed judges who believe his tenure at SS will be short. fan, you did use some of the least useful defensive stats. maybe someone can come up with some more. Reyes tailed off at the end of last season; prior to that, his offensive stats were much more comparable to ramirez.

I'll stick with "it depends" for my answer.

[TooLiveBrew]

And he can turn 2 a lot better than Reyes. In the last two years for Reyes, he's turned 72 and 88 DP's in 309 games for a total of 160 DP's. That's a huge edge.

 

All you can divine from DP totals is that the Marlins allowed more baserunners than NYM. These numbers alone tell you nothing about ability.