Prince Fielder vs. Ryan Howard

[logan82]

I always get excited when I see Prince at 3B. I hope for a sac fly in those cases. You have to wonder what is going through the catchers mind.

[Ennder]

This is another one of those discussions that really needs a year more data. I think Fielder hits 45+ HR's again this year but with a higher AVG and OBP. I think Howard has another great year but hits around .260 again. One more year makes Fielder look like more of a sure thing and makes Howard look more like a slightly improved Dunn.

[nikegolf6]

Howard = Thome, Fielder = Ortiz. That is how I think of them. Howard is going to be a .260 AVG type guy, he just doesn't make enough contact to be higher longterm. Fielder will be at or near .300. Both will have great power but Fielder will probably end up with a shorter career.

Career #s:

Thome .281/.409/.565/.974

Ortiz .289/.384/.559/.942

 

Not a big deal, I just don't get this comparison as Thome basically = Ortiz

[T B0NE 10]

Age has alot to do with it, and besides Id take Fielder anyways even if they were the same age. Fielder hits for better average, has more potential, and I believe Fielder has more power. Fielding factor, I dont know

[Ennder]

Howard = Thome, Fielder = Ortiz. That is how I think of them. Howard is going to be a .260 AVG type guy, he just doesn't make enough contact to be higher longterm. Fielder will be at or near .300. Both will have great power but Fielder will probably end up with a shorter career.

Career #s:

Thome .281/.409/.565/.974

Ortiz .289/.384/.559/.942

 

Not a big deal, I just don't get this comparison as Thome basically = Ortiz

 

I was thinking more in their prime. Ortiz did take longer to get going than Thome which makes the career numbers look different.

 

Since his coming out party Ortiz has hit .288, .301, .300, .287, .332. Those are the types of averages I expect out of Fielder.

 

Thome in his 28 to 33 age years hit .277, .269, .291, .304, .266, .274. Those are the types of averages I expect out of Howard from this point on.

[ILuvDaBush]

I think the term, "fat", gets thrown out too much with Prince. It isn't his FAT that concerns me as much as just the sheer weight. Honestly, if he were to get fat, he'd probably LOSE weight. I'd rather have the granite 300lb. Prince, however, than the doughy 270lb Prince. And Prince's batting eye has always been exempliary, IIRC. And as referenced in the original discussion, only one of those two first baseman is making it around third for an Inside The Park at the Metrodome.

[Tbadder]

He's short and he weighs a lot. Come one--some things are just common sense.

I knew it would be this well-researched.

Direct observation is research. It is the first rule of science, followed by measurement. Take his height and weight and create any stat you want, but he comes out fat, and probably worse--obese by any medical measure.

 

In History direct observation is considered a primary source. What we find in book (names, stats, weight, etc.) is a secondary source and not as valuable.

 

And take a look at his picture in the Journal today. Just look at the shape of the belt. It's gotta be an optical illusion I know.

[JohnBriggs12]

I don't think Howard even compares to Prince. When Howard was the age Prince is now, he was in the minors. Howard also strikes out at a Russell Branyan rate. There is no way he can maintain a BA over a career above around .270.

 

Is Prince big? You bet. Is Carlos Lee big? He sure is. Can the both hit? Definitely.

[homer]

"Take his height and weight and create any stat you want, but he comes out fat, and probably worse--obese by any medical measure. "

 

 

The height/weight charts are horribly inaccurate at determining body composition for muscle bound individuals (i.e. wrestlers, football players, Prince Fielder etc.).

[PrestigeWorldwide]

I few years ago I went to the doctor and checked in at 6'2'', 232. I was told I was obese according to their chart. Everyone I told thought it was the silliest thing they had ever heard.

 

Time will tell whether Prince's weight/size will mitigate his age advantage, but since we don't know it will, at this point I would take Prince over Howard for sure.

[Tbadder]

"Take his height and weight and create any stat you want, but he comes out fat, and probably worse--obese by any medical measure. "

 

 

The height/weight charts are horribly inaccurate at determining body composition for muscle bound individuals (i.e. wrestlers, football players, Prince Fielder etc.).

This has been true in the past, but these measurements have been recently updated. And still, though I could be wrong, Prince will come out obese. Your point about muscle mass is well taken, and certainly those individuals with such muscle mass are more capable of handling more fat. But just because someone has a lot of muscle doesn't mean they don't have a lot of fat as well.

 

All of this discussion takes away from the real point. That one day Prince is going to have to pay the piper. Whether that happems before his playing days are over is what's important. I for one think he'll pay sooner rather than later. In any case, he won't be in a Brewer uniform when that day comes.

[fondybrewfan]

Prince is large but we wont know if he is fat until he rips his shirt off after hitting the game winning homer in Game 7 of the World Series. Then and only then will this argument be settled

[Tbadder]

And that I will pay to see!

[Big Reed]

I didn't think prince's father was really fat. but the facts are as he got older, and became a star, he put on a lot more weight. And his career was cut short. I fear prince's career will also be cut short. I think he still has at least 10 great years left, but I doubt he plays after the age of 35.

[pete]

I would take him over Howard for many of the same reasons stated by others already... with some Homerism mixed in I confess. My impression is that he improved as a batter of the course of the last year as well. One example: early, opponents would use that Barry Bonds shift on him and that disappeared as his opposite field hitting improved.

IIRC, his draft projections and part of the reason he was available, was because he wasn't expected to reach the level of performance he already has due to weight.

Is he fat? That's a relative term. Hard to imagine he doesn't fit most people's definition. Height/weight charts are approximations across a range, but there is a point where everyone there is "overweight." I can remember him remarking that he was trying to keep his weight down early in the season.

How about the need for a mansiere? Can a person have low body fat and still need one of those?

I'm sure its not great on his feet, ankles, knees and back regardless of the fat/non-fat breakdown. I went to physical therapy over a long period of time. There were always 5/6/7 stations going at all times while I was there. I heard a lot about a lot of injuries while I was there and the talk to a new knee rehab client usually began with the phrase "the knee is a load bearing structure," followed by the admonition to trim down or stay that way.

[danzig6767]

I always get excited when I see Prince at 3B. I hope for a sac fly in those cases. You have to wonder what is going through the catchers mind.

I was a catcher for quite awhile and got run over a few times by guys bigger than me, it's no fun because you really can't brace yourself for the hit since you have to watch the throw coming to you. Kinda like if you let someone punch you in the gut after tightening your stomach muscles vs getting a surprise stomach punch.

I can't fathom getting run over by Prince with a full head of steam

 

[Gopher74]

This has been true in the past, but these measurements have been recently updated. And still, though I could be wrong, Prince will come out obese.

You're not even making an argument, you're really just saying, "he's obese because I say so".

 

And how have those measurements been recently updated? Without saying how, and just saying that they have been doesn't really do a lot for me.

 

[RoseBowlMtg]

Prince is a better all around hitter than Howard but is so much shorter. My concern with Prince is his unwillingness to go after throws that might create a collision with the runner. His 5'9" or 5'10" height you can't do anything about but it sure doesn't save errors from his infielders. He will age fast and sign for big bucks with an AL team where they will move him to DH and watch him hit 600 HR's.

[Fatter than Joey]

I heard a lot about a lot of injuries while I was there and the talk to a new knee rehab client usually began with the phrase "the knee is a load bearing structure," followed by the admonition to trim down or stay that way.

 

I think a lot of people are getting hung up on the word "fat" -- I think we all can agree that Prince is larger than most MLB players, and I think there is a historical precedence, that big dudes (athletes) don't get skinnier as they age (in the 20-40 age range)

 

My question is, does the knee care if the mass is made up fat or muscle?

 

If you had 2 guys -- same weight, same height -- but one has a higher body fat content, does the knee "as a load-bearing structure" care about the % of fat to muscle? -- Maybe someone with some physiology background can answer this.

 

If there are 3 boxes on the ground, and I have to pick them up and put them on a shelf - and they all weigh 20 lbs, and one is 20lbs of fat, the other 20lbs of muscle, and the last 10lbs of each -- my back feels the same stress lifting each box as 20lbs = 20 lbs.