Trade with the Mariners

[Gopher74]

This is a trade suggestion that I've proposed on a couple different occasions, but it's one that I think would be a great trade for the future, and one that honestly I don't think would hurt us that badly this year.

 

Ben Sheets+Lorenzo Cain(or a prospect in the 8-15 area)+Claudio Vargas

For

Jeff Clement+Brandon Morrow

 

Now I know that Ben Sheets is our ace, and I'm definitely not the type who thinks you have to trade a guy in his last year just so you get something for him, especially with the value in the compensation picks. However, Jeff Clement is a guy who's going to be a middle of the order catcher IMO.

 

Jeff Clement-As I said, middle of the order catcher in his future. Questions about staying at catcher for some teams, but I think he's got the ability to stay there. Very good athlete and would round out our future lineup as every player would be young and locked up for several years. This would keep our window open for that much longer.

 

Brandon Morrow-A true power pitcher. A upper 90's fastball hitting 99 sitting around 96, a low 90's splitter that's nearly unhittable when it's on, and a slider that sits in the middle to upper 80's. Could slide into our rotation this year, or be our closer of the future.

 

Sheets-As great as he is, he has been injured before, and I honestly think our rotation is good enough right now to overcome the loss of Ben Sheets with Yo ready to break out, Villy ready to break out and Manny Parra who many believe to have the best stuff of the group.

 

Cain/Prospect-I think the M's are going to want back a younger player since they're giving up 11 of service time for two very good young players.

Claudio Vargas-It would provide the M's with some insurance.

 

Again, I hate moving Sheets as much as the next guy, but I expect this team to improve to the point that they can easily get along without Ben Sheets.

 

This is also a move that saves the Brewers a great deal of money. 11 million for Sheets, and 3.6 for Vargas. They save nearly 15 million dollars.

The M's are looking for that top of the rotation type starter, and they think they can contend this year. They've got Kenji Johjima as their starting catcher, so they could afford to part with Clement, and Morrow would become much more expendable if they were to bring in a pitcher of Sheets caliber.

 

Finally, I think that Jeff Clement would then take over as our starter. I believe he's fully ready to play everyday in the big leagues.

 

I also think that if both teams were willing, we could make this an even bigger trade.

 

Sheets+Hall+Vargas

For

Beltre/Morrow/Clement

 

We get the most established and frankly superior 3rd basemen in Beltre, and the same two. We give up Hall, and that's a great financial loss going from Hall to Beltre, but it would also make us a better team right now, and the cost would be off-set by moving Sheeter.

 

Again, I REALLY do hate the idea of moving Sheets with what we've got to look forward to, but this is a deal that I believe improves this team marginally this year, and a great, great deal in the future. Sheets is gone after this year anyway, and we take a huge step to finalizing our lineup for 2008 and beyond.

[dadofandrew]

Doug wants to win now, which does not include trading the best pitcher on the team for prospects, albeit solid ones that are close.

[Gopher74]

Doug wants to win now, which does not include trading the best pitcher on the team for prospects, albeit solid ones that are close.

Yes, I understand that, but I do not believe that trading Sheets would preclude us from winning now, and in fact, I believe this could possibly make us a stronger team, especially if we were to lose Sheets due to injury this year.

 

Clement's ready to be a full-time player right now, and Morrow I believe could have a excellent year in the rotation/pen.

 

However, you are right, this is a unlikely trade because of the fact that we need/want to win now.

 

[twobrewers]

Yes, I understand that, but I do not believe that trading Sheets would preclude us from winning now, and in fact, I believe this could possibly make us a stronger team, especially if we were to lose Sheets due to injury this year.

Honestly, I don't think this trade would hurt us much this year. It would also make us more competitive in the future - especially if Sheets leaves after this season.

But trading Sheets would be a public relations nightmare - can you imagine how many "same old Brewers" threads would immediately pop up?

 

[Hart Of Milwaukee]

Sorry, but if the mariners won't trade Bedard for Morrow they certainly won't trade Sheets for Morrow. Although, Clement would be good to center a package around for Sheets, they just don't have a decent #2 or even # 3 to go with him.

[colbyjack]

Jeff Clement is a popular name in trade rumors, but I have heard from so many people on so many levels this offseason that he just isn't going to be able to stay behind the plate. And it's not so much about staying behind the plate, but being there. He's just not very good defensively, and if you keep him there he better be a middle of the order hitter (which is questionable) because he, like Braun, is going to have to hit a ton to outweigh the negative value his defense brings.

[TooLiveBrew]

Sorry, but if the mariners won't trade Bedard for Morrow they certainly won't trade Sheets for Morrow. Although, Clement would be good to center a package around for Sheets, they just don't have a decent #2 or even # 3 to go with him.

 

And if Morrow is as good as Gopher described, I see no way that the proposed deal is enough to get him. Morrow'd probably be the better of the two M's players... and that's saying something.

[twobrewers]

Sorry, but if the mariners won't trade Bedard for Morrow they certainly won't trade Sheets for Morrow.

I am pretty sure the Mariner's would trade Morrow for Bedard in a heartbeat.

 

It's the entire package that the Orioles are asking that is too much - Morrow and Adam Jones.

[Gopher74]

Sorry, but if the mariners won't trade Bedard for Morrow they certainly won't trade Sheets for Morrow. Although, Clement would be good to center a package around for Sheets, they just don't have a decent #2 or even # 3 to go with him.

I don't believe that the Mariners won't trade Morrow for Bedard. I'd like to see a link that says that. More likely, I'm guessing it's something to the effect that the O's are asking for Jones, someone else AND Morrow or whatever the case may be, but I doubt they've refused to include Morrow in any package for Bedard.

 

[Gopher74]

I am pretty sure the Mariner's would trade Morrow for Bedard in a heartbeat.

 

It's the entire package that the Orioles are asking that is too much - Morrow and Adam Jones.

I hadn't seen your post when I made my previous one, but this is what I suspected. No way they're just flat out balking at including Morrow with Bedard.

 

And if Morrow is as good as Gopher described, I see no way that the proposed deal is enough to get him. Morrow'd probably be the better of the two M's players... and that's saying something.

 

Well, we're giving up an awful lot in this trade as well. Perhaps we have to change Cain to someone like Gamel, or even Sheets+Capuano for Morrow and Clement, but it was just kinda a starting point, and one that I think is pretty close.

Not to mention there are some questions surrounding Morrow. A-He's had some durability issues. B-Some think he'll end up a closer because of command issues, and issues with his secondary pitches.

 

But you are giving up an ace pitcher who the Mariners would have a very good chance to re-sign. I think it's a helluva deal for both sides to be honest, but like I said, if there were any problems, you could always throw something else in.

 

Another idea would be the second trade I suggested.

 

Sheets+Hall+Escobar+Capuano

For

Beltre+Morrow+Clement

 

That just seems like it'd be getting too big to make that trade.

[ILuvDaBush]

I also recall reading that Morrow was unavailable. He was fast tracked through the minors and was given an apprenticeship at the highest level in the bullpen last year. I thought I recalled seeing they were going to try him in the rotation. I'd do the Sheets deal in a second...but the Mariners won't. It would have been like suggesting you trade Braun and Gallardo last offseason for one year of Brett Myers or Rich Harden....and fodder.

[Gopher74]

I also recall reading that Morrow was unavailable. He was fast tracked through the minors and was given an apprenticeship at the highest level in the bullpen last year. I thought I recalled seeing they were going to try him in the rotation. I'd do the Sheets deal in a second...but the Mariners won't. It would have been like suggesting you trade Braun and Gallardo last offseason for one year of Brett Myers or Rich Harden....and fodder.

Except that Sheets is much better than Myers and his injury situtation isn't nearly as bad as Harden's. In fact, Sheets has thrown as much last year as Harden did in just about the last 3 seasons. The most he's ever thrown has been 184 IP, so that's a poor analogy.

 

Second, Clement and Morrow are not as good as Gallardo and Braun. Morrow isn't nearly as much of a sure thing as Gallardo and is a couple years older. And Clement like Braun has defensive issues, but doesn't have near the stick.

 

So it really wouldn't have been anything like that. Both sides of the trade is worse.

 

Anyway, I'm not going to argue how available he is, or isn't, but I am going ot question the comment that the M's wouldn't trade Morrow for Bedard. That'd make the M's a real viable contender for the NL west this year.

[ILuvDaBush]

Umm....The M's are in the AL West and while Bedard would be quite the complement to King Felix, his health is far from a guarantee. Furthermore, Clement has 40HR potential at the most difficult of positions and Morrow was in the majors within a year of being drafted.

[princeginterhallhelms04]

I would love to get both of those players on our team. But i am sure that the M's would want more and it would start with YO or Some sort of Para, Villy and prospects to get the above mentioned players. Personally would not want to give up that much. But sheets yes i would do it!

[KCBrewerfan34]

Would Parra, Jeffress, Escobar & Gamel get Bedard?

[And That]

Would Parra, Jeffress, Escobar & Gamel get Bedard?

I'd sure hope so. I'd also never give up that many prospect for a pitcher without a great track record of durability. You're talking 4 of the best 10 prospects in a top 12 minor league system.

 

[twobrewers]

You're talking 4 of the best 10 prospects in a top 12 minor league system.

True. But Jeffress has some baggage. (Weed) And Escobar is pretty light with the stick yet. And while I am a huge Gamel fan, he doesn't have a defensive home yet.

 

The idea of getting Bedard for those 4 players would be too tempting for me. Bedard would be switching from the best division in baseball (And the AL) to the worst division in baseball (And the NL) Plus he still has two years on his contract.

 

AND, we have 7 picks in the first 90 in the upcoming draft. We could restock really fast.

 

That said, it won't happen.

[jackalope02ca]

Those 4 would hopefully get it done. It might take a Gindl type tossed in as well though as it is the Orioles we are talking about here.

I think the only way Doug wouldn't pull the trigger on that one is if he had his mouth full when he heard the offer and he choked as a result.

Yes it's 4 prospects with a lot of talent but they all have question marks and I don't think any project as all star type material. Bedard is a stud and the type of player that puts you over the hump and into a World Series appearance. If there is a chance you do it.

[DrWood]

that's not 4 of the top 10, it's 4 of the top 5 or 6 prospects in the system. I sure wouldn't do that trade. Bedard isn't worth that much. Of course, I think Parra could walk in and be a top #3 starter this year, Jeffress has top closer or Ace written all over him (his friends took a sharpie to him when he was zoned out after smoking a blunt), Escobar could be the second coming of Vizquel, and Gamel could become a solid everyday player.

[KCBrewerfan34]

Dr Wood I read your post over 3 times or so and you know the one theme your post had was "COULD", if the Brewers are interested in the WS, Bedard would be the last piece missing. A rotation of a healthy Sheets, Bedard, Gallardo, Villanueva & Suppan and not only do you put the Brewers into playoffs but you also start thinking WS.

 

I know that is a different concept for many of us but this team doesn't have a large window, this year or next maybe 2010, then we're going to start losing guys, the guys I mentioned above all have some major issues and they are no sure things, if I'm Melvin I'm on the phone yesterday to the Orioles.

[DrWood]

yeah, and some year Bedard COULD even pitch 200 innings. Thank God you're NOT Melvin.

[twobrewers]

Jeffress has top closer or Ace written all over him (his friends took a sharpie to him when he was zoned out after smoking a blunt),

That's just funny.

 

Bedard COULD even pitch 200 innings.

Bedard pitched 196 innings two years ago. He pitched 182 last year before they shut him down. He only had slight soreness - but since they were well out of the playoffs, they played it safe.

 

Just saying...your post makes it seem like he has barely been able to stay healthy (And if you intend to argue health, you have to account for Parra's medical risk)

[DrWood]

my use of the word "could" was in reply to KC's use of the word. Those four guys aren't huge question marks in my mind (other than injury or suspension which can happen to anyone--well at least the injury part).

I do have some concerns about Bedard--he may have just had his career year as a 28 year old. His injury wasn't arm/shoulder, so isn't a big issue.

I **might** trade those 4 guys for Kazmir, who is a younger, better lefty starter than Bedard.

[Postseason2006]

yeah, and some year Bedard COULD even pitch 200 innings. Thank God you're NOT Melvin.

From all the moronic things Melvin said before signing Cameron, I think my 11 month old kid could do a better job. I agree with KC.

[KCBrewerfan34]

Wood, open your mind for a moment and actually think that our team has a chance to win, many of us on this board are totally into player development player development player development, we have a very good chance to contend this year and do some damage, LETS GO FOR IT.

Everyone one of those guys in my proposed deal have some serious concerns, checkout Parra's injury history yet you don't have any concerns??

And Wood you could do ALOT worse than me as your GM, be careful what you ask for http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

 

GO BREW