Dotel signs with White Sox (2 yrs, $11M)

[MarquesJohnson2000]

as reported by Impacto Deportivo.

 

http://www.rotowire.com/baseball/latestnews.htm

[TooLiveBrew]

Now the CWS are only a LF, CF, 2B, and a few SPs away from contending! Seriously, what's wrong with Kenny Williams? I realize Dotel's a decent option, but man. Does adding a $5.5 mil. AAV guy in the bullpen really help them at all in 2008 or 2009?

[valpocrewsader]

I really, really like Dotel and was hoping he'd be a bullpen acquisition for us this off-season. For an extra 2.3 million, I'd love to have him over Mota. Even with the second year of commitment....

[ImGantnerDamit]

Actually they had an interview with Dotel's agent on WSCR earlier in the day, he said this was totally untrue and that there were five other teams that were still showing interest in Dotel

[JohnBriggs12]

Dotel's agent is now refuting this.

[MarquesJohnson2000]

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080118&content_id=2350518&vkey=hotstove2007&fext=.jsp

 

Update.

[Brian the Automator]

If you can't trust Impacto Deportivo, who can you trust?

[brettac1]

I realize Dotel's a decent option, but man. Does adding a $5.5 mil. AAV guy in the bullpen really help them at all in 2008 or 2009?

 

You sign guys like Dotel to trade them. So, yeah, if you gamble and he stays healthy until July 31, 2008, it turns out to be a good signing. I realize it's cool, hip, and groovy to rip Ken Williams, but the guy is a smart GM (outside of hiring managers).

 

That's why seeing him being reported as signing a 2 year deal made me leery of Impacto. Who would sign him for two years at this point? Sign him for one and hope he can pitch 25 games and stay healthy enough to pass a physical.

[TooLiveBrew]

Sorry, I wasn't trying to be cool, hip, or groovy. I just don't agree that he's a good GM. He's not as bad as he's made out to be, but I'm no fan. Good point on flipping RP/Dotel/etc. Btw, "Impacto Deportivo" is Spanish for "Fair & Balanced," iirc. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Gopher74]

You sign guys like Dotel to trade them. So, yeah, if you gamble and he stays healthy until July 31, 2008, it turns out to be a good signing. I realize it's cool, hip, and groovy to rip Ken Williams, but the guy is a smart GM (outside of hiring managers).

 

That's why seeing him being reported as signing a 2 year deal made me leery of Impacto. Who would sign him for two years at this point? Sign him for one and hope he can pitch 25 games and stay healthy enough to pass a physical.

I absolutely agree, and I really don't believe that the Chicago White Sox are anywhere near as bad as people seem to think.

 

I think that offensive team is going to be incredibly dangerous, maybe the best in that division which his saying an awful lot with the Tigers.

I think that Swisher, Konerko and Thome could all be 40 HR, .400 OBP type guys(Konerko's probably going to be more around a .375 guy with a optimistic .385).

I really like Cabrera at short for them, and Crede at 3rd has the potential to hit 30+ HR's again, and his paltry OBP isn't as big of a deal hitting 6th behind those guys in the 3/4/5 holes. And if Jermaine Dye bounces back and you can hit him 5th and slide Swisher into that number 2 hole then this team could really be sick offensively.

 

Vazquez and Buhrele are two very solid starters, that BP with Jenks, Linebrink and then Dotel if it happens is very good.

 

I think it just comes down to how good a couple of their younger arms do such as Floyd and Jenks do this year.

 

This is a team that won 90 games in 06 after winning the WS in 05, and they've done some very nice things this year and people just automatically assume they're going to be awful next year. I don't. At least I don't know, I could very easily see this team winning 85 games or more next season. I could see them being in a wild card race this season or a division race, even with the Tigers and Indians in that race.

[JoeHova]

But Swisher and Konerko have never approached a .400 OBP and they have 2 40 homer years between them. Thome's great, but he's 37.

 

I dunno, I think if you put up the most optimistic possible stats for each player, any team will look good in the offseason. That's why there is always so much optimism in the offseason (ie- well, if this, this, & this happen, they could be pretty good).

 

Swisher and Konerko are good but neither are great. The Sox offense won't compare to a team like the Tigers, Yankees, or Red Sox. It could be pretty good, but Thome and Konerko are risks (Thome because of age, Konerko because of his inconsistency). Cabrera does seem like a good fit at short but it only moves Uribe to 2nd base (last I heard at least), it doesn't remove him from the lineup.

 

With Uribe at 2nd and Crede at 3rd, that's two big minuses in the lineup right there. Dye & Pierzynski were pretty bad last year. They may bounce back, but age also may have taken it's toll on one or both of them. Then, Quentin may be good but he's unproven and his minor league stats are inflated by Arizona's launching pads. His minor league numbers are very comparable to Lyle Overbay's, which isn't bad but he might not be as good as some people think he will be. Jerry Owens and Brian Anderson both suck so they have no centerfielder at this point.

 

So, I see their lineup like this:

 

C- Pierzynski- about average for a catcher. maybe a little above, not much though.

1B- Konerko- about average for a first baseman- upside of being one of the top 10 maybe, poor defense

2B- Uribe- big minus, though his defense if pretty good

3B- Crede- see Uribe, add chronic back problems

SS- Cabrera- solid player, good defender, but does have some really bad years.

RF- Dye- about average for a corner OF, had the huge 2006, not likely to repeat that

CF- Anderson or Owens- both are terrible

LF- Swisher- pretty good player, about Corey Hart's level but with more OBP, less slugging and speed.

DH- Thome- legit Hall of Famer but getting very old. Has been a top 10 hitter in his league 5 of the last 7 years.

4th OF- Quentin- nice prospect, another Corey Hart type? Not a top guy like Fielder or Braun but should at least be ok.

 

The problem with their OF is that Quentin, Swisher, and Dye can't play CF (though Swisher has done it in the past, so they might try it, I suppose) and their 2 CFs can't hit at all.

 

The Brewers are better at every position except catcher and DH (obviously http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif ) and they aren't even considered to have a great offense.

 

The Tigers are way better at almost every position except DH and even then they have Sheffield in that spot so that's not too shabby. LF is the only spot where the Sox have a big advantage and the Tigers have better pitching as well.

[Gopher74]

But Swisher and Konerko have never approached a .400 OBP and they have 2 40 homer years between them. Thome's great, but he's 37.

 

First of all, I went back and adjusted my prediction of stance on Konerko, so there's really very little need to point that out again.

Second, Swisher is young, and has played in Oakland his entire career with nothing around him in that lineup. Move him to a lineup with that type of power, and in a stadium that's not a huge pitchers park, and he's going to get even better. And he's been around .390 the last couple years. If you think that it's not likely that he's around .400, I think you'd be in the minority.

Same goes for the power. He's hit 35 in Oakland one of the biggest pitchers parks in the league, and you think it's hard to envision him hitting 40 in Chicago? I disagree.

 

I dunno, I think if you put up the most optimistic possible stats for each player, any team will look good in the offseason. That's why there is always so much optimism in the offseason (ie- well, if this, this, & this happen, they could be pretty good).

And when that team won a WS just 3 years ago and was a 90 win team two years ago before dealing with an abundance of injuries last year, and having other players slump, it becomes more than optimistic, but very realistic.

Swisher and Konerko are good but neither are great. The Sox offense won't compare to a team like the Tigers, Yankees, or Red Sox. It could be pretty good, but Thome and Konerko are risks (Thome because of age, Konerko because of his inconsistency). Cabrera does seem like a good fit at short but it only moves Uribe to 2nd base (last I heard at least), it doesn't remove him from the lineup.

 

Again, many would argue with you on the Swisher thing, especially many on this board, and his benefit from moving from Oakland to Chicago is going to be huge.

-Thome has a OBP over .410 each of the last two years, and has nearly 80 HR's during that time. He's a DH. I don't know how big of a risk he is.

-Konerko's 31 years old, and in a "down year" last year he hit 31 HR's. 31/35/40/41 the last 4 years. Him hitting 40 certainly isn't a reach. Not with that lineup.

-As I said with Swisher, his move should be absolutely huge.

-Dye's one year removed from a 40/120 season. He could also have a bounce back year.

With Uribe at 2nd and Crede at 3rd, that's two big minuses in the lineup right there. Dye & Pierzynski were pretty bad last year. They may bounce back, but age also may have taken it's toll on one or both of them. Then, Quentin may be good but he's unproven and his minor league stats are inflated by Arizona's launching pads. His minor league numbers are very comparable to Lyle Overbay's, which isn't bad but he might not be as good as some people think he will be. Jerry Owens and Brian Anderson both suck so they have no centerfielder at this point.

 

-Crede hit 30 HR's with 90 RBI's and hit .285 two years ago when he was healthy. That's not a "big minus", that's a player that is a question mark, but one that can be very good for what they need. He's also a fantastic defender.

-I'm not sure Uribe's going to be their 2nd basemen. They've got 1)Getz who could be up by mid-season, a very good young 2nd basemen, they could move Fields over which has been rumored, a very good young hitter as well, or they could sign Loretta, something else that's been rumored.

-Scotty Po could be their CF'er, and Quentin is a good looking young prospect. Again, with the middle of that order, they don't need 40 HR's from everyone else.

-AJ and Dye did have poor years last year, but even in a "poor year" AJ was still probably about league average or better in BA and OBP, and Dye was much better in the second half.

The problem with their OF is that Quentin, Swisher, and Dye can't play CF (though Swisher has done it in the past, so they might try it, I suppose) and their 2 CFs can't hit at all.

 

If they do put Swisher in Center, that's going to be a good offensive OF. Or at least it'd have the potential to be.

 

The Brewers are better at every position except catcher and DH (obviously http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif ) and they aren't even considered to have a great offense.

Says who? If they don't, then how many teams do? They led the league in HR's last year, and improved with Cameron, and should improve a great deal with another year of experience. I do think they're a great offense, and I think they'll be among the top 2 in the NL in runs this year.

The Tigers are way better at almost every position except DH and even then they have Sheffield in that spot so that's not too shabby. LF is the only spot where the Sox have a big advantage and the Tigers have better pitching as well.

DH, 1st, SS could go to the Sox with the way Renteria played in the NL last year, and Cabrera's season last year, Mag's could get hurt like he's been known to do, LF, Pudge isn't exactly in his prime anymore.

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying the Tigers are a great offensive team, merely that they have the potential to be, and that everyone dismisses them as though they don't have a chance to do anything. Sure, it's easy to say, "Oh, it's the White Sox, they were terrible last year, they don't have a chance, Kenny Williams is an idiot", but they did have an exceptional amount of bad luck and players slumping at the same time. This is a team that could easily bounce back and hit 210 HR's, play very, very good defense, and win 90 games again. Meanwhile the Tigers could lose Sheff, Mag's, Pudge to injury, Renteria could slump again in the AL, Polanco could get injured, or not come back form his injury last year.

 

I wouldn't bet on it, but I wouldn't be so sure that they're not going to bounce back this year.

 

Let's not forget this is a team that was universally picked to be in the top 2 in that division last year, and they fell off the cliff after two 90 win seasons and a WS championship.

[JoeHova]

Renteria was great last year, he hit .332 and he has a better track record than Cabrera.

 

Guillen is at least equal to Konerko, in my opinion, especially once you factor in (projected) defense. Konerko is a butcher at 1st and Guillen was pretty good at short. I think he'll make a good transition.

 

Pudge isn't in his prime but he's still better than Pierzynski. He's hit better than AJ literally every year of AJ's career, plus he's an all-time great defender.

 

LF is definitely an edge to the White Sox, Jacque Jones isn't very good and Swisher is. However, does that make up for Ordonez's superiority over Dye or Granderson's big edge on whoever Chicago uses in center? Not in my opinion.

 

DH is a matchup of two injury prone all-time greats. Their career stats are quite similar but Thome is two years younger so he gets the edge. However, this could go either way. It could be a blowout for the Sox or the Tigers or it could be a dead heat. It's impossible to say with guys that old.

 

 

As for Swisher, I didn't say I couldn't envision him hitting 40 homers, I just said he's never done it and Konerko has only done it twice, so it's hardly a given. Bill Hall also hit 35 homers in 2006, would you bet much on him hitting 40 in 2008? I wouldn't. Hitting 40 home runs is hard. Two guys (2!) in the whole American League (and only 3 in the NL) did it last year and you have 3 guys on the same team doing it. I'm not saying that it definitely won't happen, just that it's pretty unlikely.

[JohnBriggs12]

Swisher is going to play CF barring a deal that nets them a CF. Owens will play some in CF as a semi platoon with Quentin in LF, then Swisher will move over.

 

Josh Fields is going to play 3B.

 

Crede will be traded once he proves he's healthy.

 

Owens is not a bad player just limited. He's Tony Gwynn Jr.

 

Their problems aren't their lineup which however it shakes out isn't too bad. Their problem is starting pitching depth. Dealing Crede should alleviate that.

[TooLiveBrew]

And he's been around .390 the last couple years. If you think that it's not likely that he's around .400, I think you'd be in the minority.

 

He hasn't been around .390 - but the assertion that he hasn't been near .400 OBP is wrong.

 

2005 - .322

2006 - .372

2007 - .381

[TheCouga23]

The Tigers are way better at almost every position except DH and even then they have Sheffield in that spot so that's not too shabby. LF is the only spot where the Sox have a big advantage and the Tigers have better pitching as well.

DH, 1st, SS could go to the Sox with the way Renteria played in the NL last year, and Cabrera's season last year, Mag's could get hurt like he's been known to do, LF, Pudge isn't exactly in his prime anymore.

I'd say DH is a wash, I'd rather have Guillen at 1B than Konerko, and I'd rather have Renteria than Orlando Cabrera. Then there is Miguel Cabrera, Ordonez and Granderson at other positions where the Sox just flat out can't compete with the Tigers. The only position the Sox have a clear advantage is in LF. You speculate that all these Tiger hitters could get injured, but you take for granted that all the Sox are going to be healthy as well. Maggs isn't known for getting hurt. He had one freak injury in his career, and he is past that. As far as pitching is concerned, the Tigers are better hands down. Also, I'd give the defensive edge to the Tigers.

 

Even with all this wheeling and dealing Williams is doing, it's very easy to think that the Sox could finish dead last. Their World Series team in 2005 was one of the luckiest teams ever in terms of run differential and expected runs from the kind of hits they got. They were fairly lucky in the first half of 2006 as well, but they finally came back to reality. Now they have less pitching and an aging offense. The Tigers were second in runs last year in the AL, and that was with Sheffield injured for half of the season, and without Miguel Cabrera, Renteria and a Jones/Thames platoon in LF (which, while not great, will almost certainly be better than Craig Monroe. And now you are comparing one of the worst offensive teams of last year to them. I just don't get it.

 

[And That]

Owens is not a bad player just limited. He's Tony Gwynn Jr.

"Limited" is the best adjective that be used to describe TGJ. He's terrible.

[Ennder]

I predicted the White Sox to win 74 games last year, BPro predicted them to win 72, they won 72. It was not a bunch of down years and injuries, it was a bad team. It is improved now but It will still take some luck to win more than 81 games in my opinion.

 

Btw, Crede is very mediocre. Even the year he hit 30 HR's he only had a .318 OBP which undermined the .824 OPS. He has had one year where he was average offensively for a 3B and the rest of his career he has been well below average.

[TooLiveBrew]

[CWS] were fairly lucky in the first half of 2006 as well, but they finally came back to reality. Now they have less pitching and an aging offense

 

I'm not a fan of these Sox, and am of the belief that if things aren't going well by July, it'd be a good time to start dealing some players a la Oak. Swisher is one you can build around, along with whatever young talent nearing MLB beyond Fields.

[JoeHova]

He hasn't been around .390 - but the assertion that he hasn't been near .400 OBP is wrong.

 

2005 - .322

2006 - .372

2007 - .381

I'm well aware of the numbers but I stand by my assertion that .380 does not approach .400. It's pretty close, but I don't think one year of missing the mark by 20 points means he's a likely .400 guy. I guess it's only 12 more times reaching base (assuming 600 PAs), but still.

 

[TooLiveBrew]

I'd just wanted to clear up the muddy waters - for my money, .381 OBP eliminates the statement 'Swisher hasn't neared a .400 OBP' from any discussion. As you mentioned, it's extremely close to being .400. But it was also mistaken or misleading to suggest he's hung around .390 for the past few years. I never said he was likely to reach a .400 OBP, just that .381 is very much near that mark.

[Ennder]

If you can't trust Impacto Deportivo, who can you trust?

It went official today so apparently you can trust them!

 

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7703382

[TooLiveBrew]

http://www.newsperuvian.com/Portal/images/impacto-deportivo-grande.jpg

 

¡No me gusta el Autómataro de Brian!

[Gopher74]

You speculate that all these Tiger hitters could get injured, but you take for granted that all the Sox are going to be healthy as well. Maggs isn't known for getting hurt. He had one freak injury in his career, and he is past that. As far as pitching is concerned, the Tigers are better hands down. Also, I'd give the defensive edge to the Tigers.

And now you are comparing one of the worst offensive teams of last year to them. I just don't get it.

 

No, I never speculated that "all" of the Tigers players were going to get hurt, I "speculated'' that if some of them got hurt and the White Sox stayed healthy, they could be a very good team. Don't exaggerate what I said to make your point clearer.

 

All I ever said was that was a team that is better than they're given credit for on here and they could well make a run like they did two years ago if they stay healthy and some of their players bounce back. And yes, obviously I said that under teh assumption that they'd stay healthy because if they didn't, it'd be a pretty stupid argument to make. I also never said anything more than "they could", so I don't understand this comment on any level.

 

And second, you must not be "getting it" because I never compared them. I guess I don't get how you can't get what I'm saying. I'm not saying they're a better team than the Tigers, I'm saying they're a team that could be a contender and if everything goes right for them, something that probably won't happen, but could, then they could be a contender this year.

[Gopher74]

As for Swisher, I didn't say I couldn't envision him hitting 40 homers, I just said he's never done it and Konerko has only done it twice, so it's hardly a given. Bill Hall also hit 35 homers in 2006, would you bet much on him hitting 40 in 2008? I wouldn't. Hitting 40 home runs is hard. Two guys (2!) in the whole American League (and only 3 in the NL) did it last year and you have 3 guys on the same team doing it. I'm not saying that it definitely won't happen, just that it's pretty unlikely.

Really? Exactly where does that come from? Where do you get that "I Have 3 guys on the same team doing it"?

 

I said they have 3 guys who could, meaning they have 3 guys who all have very good power potential. Hell, I could have said 4 because along with the Thome and Konerko who have done it several times between the two of them, Dye did it just two years ago and Swisher's moving to a hitters park as I said, but either way, I don't "have" anyone doing it, it was as I said, a comment that's not suppose to be taken as a literal number that all 3 or 4 could reach, but a point that they have some power that very few teams can match.