Is Counsell really needed now?

[JohnBriggs12]

Now that Hall is once again an infielder and presumably fully capable of sliding over to SS or 2B in the event of a Hardy or Weeks injury (with Dillon to 3B) do they really need a 37 year old .220 hitter who is now basically a pinch bunter and cheerleader?

One of the benefits of the Cameron to CF and Hall to 3b is that it reduces Counsell's role.

I realize he's owed $3.2 million but I'd be willing to eat half of that if some team out there wanted him.

While were on guys who are affected by the Cameron deal, what use is there for Kapler now?

[Brian the Automator]

I would think that given the lack of left-handed hitters on the team, Counsell still has value to the club.

[dadofandrew]

I think every team needs a good utility IF. Hall will not have any interest in sliding over all the time. Counsell is a very good defender and has a nice OBP for a reserve.

[DrWood]

absolutely need a backup middle infielder, particularly one that can also play 3b.

[brewers4eric]

I don't think that it hurts to have a little insurance at the infield positions, especially a solid defender. This role fits much better than the third base platoon that he filled at the start of 2007.

 

As long as Counsell gets fewer than 150 plate appearances, I'll be happy. That signals that Hall, Hardy, and Weeks are healthy, and that I can deal with Counsell's Gus Polidor type production with the bat.

[Gopher74]

Absolutely we need him. Unless we've got a guy in Triple A who is a viable backup player at several positions(which we do not right now), then yea, we definitely need a guy who's got well above average defense at 2nd, 3rd and short.

 

And while Counsell's not going to put up Ruth-like numbers, he should improve on last years numbers at least a little bit.

[JohnBriggs12]

I would think that given the lack of left-handed hitters on the team, Counsell still has value to the club.

 

They lack lefthanded starters, but Counsell is no better than 3rd lefty off my bench, behind Gross and Gwynn.

 

As for middle infielders, I think Ozzie Chavez (a switch hitter) or Escobar could easily be called on to fill in and do an adequate job defensively off the bench if needed and hit close to what Counsell provides now.

 

If they had to use Counsell as a regular anywhere, the dropoff offensively would be enormous. That's why I'd use Dillon as backup at 3B and move Hall over in the event of a DL stay for either Hardy or Weeks.

[And That]

To get anything close to his major league value, we'd have to eat more than half of his salary, I'd think. And then we're just paying him not to be here and likely downgrading his roster spot at the same time. Escobar or Chavez *might* be able to fill in but I'd rather not pay another team to take him off our hands and find out.

[SoCalBrewfan]

Counsell is nothing special of course, but he is still an excellent defender at the three infield positions aside from first...his bat is underwhelming, but he does hit lefty and is a reasonable option to spell one of the starters every so often. I guess I see him as neither a particular problem nor a particular strength...the D is the one thing that makes him worth keeping, though it's often not that hard to find replacement-level hitters who can play good infield D. I don't like the option of Escobar simply because he needs to play in order to develop....his glove is great but he needs offensive reps that he wouldn't get in the bigs.

 

 

 

If a starter goes down and Counsell is needed to play a lot, we're probably in big trouble anyway.

 

 

 

I definitely agree that Kapler is even more unnecessary now.

[Brian the Automator]

I would think that given the lack of left-handed hitters on the team, Counsell still has value to the club.

They lack lefthanded starters, but Counsell is no better than 3rd lefty off my bench, behind Gross and Gwynn.

I'm skeptical that they would keep Gwynn on the roster, making Counsell the 2nd lefty off the bench, and still the only lefty infielder off the bench in case of a double-switch. I have no faith in Chavez or Escobar at this point (not that I have faith in Counsell, but at least we know what we're getting).

[endaround]

Unless Gwynn get traded I expect him to be the Opening Day starter in CF.

[Baldkin]

Braun/Hart/Gross on opening day. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

I think TGJ will make the team, although, I could see Dillon seeing time in the corner spots and perhaps platooning with Gross to start the year. Dillon could very well fill Bill Hall's role from 2 years ago.

[paul253]

I think every team needs a good utility IF

So where do we find this good utility If from?

 

I could see Dillon seeing time in the corner spots

 

I hope you mean corner infield spots, because from what I remember, his defense in the outfield last year was pretty terrible.

[ILuvDaBush]

He is the epitome of a bench player. He will give you quality AB's by working the count and taking a walk, he hits extremely well with the bases juiced, and he plays good defense at multiple positions. As well, he gives Ned that lefty bat to spell Rickie and JJ, in hopes that they don't get worn out.

[paul253]

He hasn't hit above .256 since 2002, and his OBP has been dropping each of the past 3 seasons. I am glad he hits well with the bases loaded, but how many times is he going to actually be in that situation...10? Yeah he draws walks, but an OBP of .323 isn't really that much to get excited about. His on base percentage and, believe it or not, his slugging percentage, were both lower than Tony Gwynn's, and we all know how people feel about him. I just don't see him as a quality reserve.....i know that if a game were on the line, I certainly wouldn't want him batting.

[lukevan]

i know that if a game were on the line, I certainly wouldn't want him batting.

 

 

 

Counsell will be used mostly as a defensive replacement and spot starter. Once Cameron serves his suspension, I see Counsell splitting IF reserve duty with Dillon at 3B & 2B, with Counsell backing up SS. Hardy won't take too many days off (only had a few days worth of injuries last season) and Weeks & Hall will play almost every day. Counsell is not going to hurt us. His deal is up after this season so we can just not bring him back next season.

[ILuvDaBush]

Well that's the beauty of the bench. In such a situation, you can always yank back the prepubescent flailer and tab Crazy Joe for the meaningful AB.

[logan82]

I think we have an option on Counsell with a buyout. I don't think the buyout is much though.

[Dmiles23]

I hope you mean corner infield spots, because from what I remember, his defense in the outfield last year was pretty terrible.

I agree with this. He's not horrible out there, but he's not very good either. A lot of people are saying to platoon Dillon and Gross in right while Cameron is on suspension. Dillon has only played 1 game in his career in right, and I think that could be a disaster to start the season with Braun transitioning in left, and Dillon in right. This is why I think it would be smart for the Brewers to hold on to Kapler and play him in right against lefties to start out the year. He is a good fielder, and it will allow Hart to help out Braun a little more. Our offense is strong to begin with, so having Kapler in there to help out on defense would be a plus. That would only be 8-10 games of Kapler max, with Gross/Gwynn playing against righties. But I agree that after Cameron's 25 games are done, Kapler should be sent packing.

 

[rousieboy]

In a recent JS article they asked Packer players to rank the teams leaders...to no one's surprise Favre was the top...closely followed by a 39 year old long snapper, Rob Davis, who was viewed as THE go to guy in the locker room for both players and coaches...

 

 

 

Davis could have been farmed out by a younger, cheaper longsnapper from any university years ago...you just never know what a vet means to a team...this Brewer team doesn't have too many guys with rings...CC has two from teams that were not exactly favorites going into the Series...

 

 

 

You never know unless you are in that locker room...

 

 

 

Rouse

[gregmag]

So . . . because we know nothing about Counsell's leadership skills, that means that for all we know he could have leadership skills, and that makes him valuable?

 

I don't like Counsell or his contract, but my take on recent developments is that they help reduce his role to what it should be. A team with this much thunder can benefit from a utility guy whose strength is defense. Also, there's no way they slide Hall over in the event of a Weeks or Hardy injury -- he's done his mitzvah for the season as far as position switches are concerned.

 

Of course Counsell isn't any kind of a hitter, so the fact that he's a lefty doesn't mean much. But that's not the point with him; he's on the roster for high-leverage defensive situations.

 

Greg.

[jlau20]

I wish I could remember who it was against and exactly what happened, but he won me over last year with that 11(?) pitch at-bat with 2 outs, guys on base and us down a few runs (all of that ?). I really don't remember the exact situation but it was awesome.

[craig712]

I have been reading this board for a long time but this is my first post...

 

Maybe if all that is wrong with counsell is his poor skills at the plate perhaps someone should tell him how to hold the bat. If I would have ever tried to bat like that at any level my coaches would have drop kicked me.

[Ennder]

Cousell was actually one of the better defensive players in baseball last season so I don't have a huge issue with him having a bench role. I just hope nobody gets hurt and forces him into more of a full time role.

[danzig6767]

Cousell was actually one of the better defensive players in baseball last season so I don't have a huge issue with him having a bench role. I just hope nobody gets hurt and forces him into more of a full time role.

Yep, i agree, he really is any outstanding defensive player

Plus, i think Melvin/Yost view him as important because if Hardy gets hurt, there is no other place for the team to turn to at shortstop. Sure Craig would be a big downgrade over Hardy at the plate, but at least the team can feel confident that they would get very good defense at a vital defensive position.