The Brewers didn't address their real needs

[logan82]

Gopher74 wrote:

That game you are refering to which I believe was vs the Chicago Cubs when he brought in Linebrink and we got killed by a 4 run inning and lose the lead was about a week after he'd left Bush in in a near identical situation vs the Giants.

I understand they are two different pitchers, but a lot of the time last year, Yost seemed to be screwed no mater what he did.

 

It was also shortly after Capuano was left in at Washington and he gave up a bunch of runs. Save yourself some aggrivation and avoid the "Yay Nay" thread. I wish I could, but I seem to be a glutton for punishment.

[Prince James]

The real key to bullpen management is to have enough viable options that the choices are 1 and 1A.

Exactly. Our bullpen was just poor last year, and nothing makes a manager look worse to the fans than a sub-par BP.

 

I questioned Yost's decisions a lot last year as well, but I wonder how much of this was just due to him trying to improve the BP situation. Nonetheless, I still believe we make the playoffs last year if he did even half of what was suggested on this message board with the BP moves. Who knows?

[strawbossisevil]

""""In a lot of those situations you are referring to, our pitchers were pitching very well.

 

FTJ Said: No they weren't, and the stats bear that out.""""

 

 

In response Joey. Most of the times we are talking about, going into the 6th or 7th inning, the pitchers were (emphasis on past tense - indicating innings 1-5) pitching well, meaning not a lot of hits and runs. For example, I recall at one instance with D. Bush. Where he went 5 or 6 innings of solid pitching, and then blew up in the 7th inning. That isn't Ned's fault. If he was still going into an inning pitching well and only has 75 or so pitches, you can't pull the guy. That's my point. You pull him and people call for Ned's head because he pulled a pitcher who was pitching well and excessively burned out the bullpen. You leave him in, and he blows up, and its Ned's fault for not knowing he'll blow up. This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say that Ned can do no right with certain people.

[Gopher74]

It was also shortly after Capuano was left in at Washington and he gave up a bunch of runs. Save yourself some aggrivation and avoid the "Yay Nay" thread. I wish I could, but I seem to be a glutton for punishment.

Yea, I've tried.

 

I'm trying not to sound like a jerk here, but sometimes it just astounds me how so many people can honestly think that they'd make a better manager than Ned Yost. And I realize that this is definitely going to be met with harsh criticism on here because it's the consensus of the board that he's a terrible manager and nearly every other post has to come back to that somehow, but some people would blame Yost no matter what happens, and then turn around and say after he makes a move that works that it was still the wrong move.

 

Yost definitely did some things that I disagreed with last year, but baseball more so than any other sport lends itself to second guessing the manager, and no matter what, it's easier to blame the manager than the players. It's easier to replace one manager than 25 players.

 

Give Yost Carlos Marmol last year and I believe we'd have won 90 games and been in the playoffs.

[TooLiveBrew]

The funny thing is that we had our Marmol (Villanueva), and Yost misused him, Villy tired out, then *poof* no extra plus arm in the 'pen.

[Gopher74]

The funny thing is that we had our Marmol (Villanueva), and Yost misused him, Villy tired out, then *poof* no extra plus arm in the 'pen.

Oh c'mon. First of all, anytime a pitcher struggles, I know it's "cool" to say that it was Yost's fault no matter what, but I'd love to see what people would have said if he wouldn't have used one of his best relievers in the first half last year because he didn't "want to tire him out". I'm sure people would have wanted to storm Miller Park.

 

Second, Carlos Villanueva is not as good as Carlos Marmol. At least not as a reliever.

 

But how many things can we honestly lay at Yost's feet before it starts to get a little ridiculous?

 

 

[lukevan]

I agree that Yost gets too much heat for the relative impact he had on losses last season. Gopher you bring up a good point about Villy; everyone says that he was overworked last year, but if we would have used him less, Brewers fans would've been screaming at Ned for leaving Villy in the pen while throwing Aquino/Spurling in a 1 run game. Either way he's stupid.

 

I yelled at Yost multiple times last season (Mench v. Dempster is a prime candidate) but the way he gets slammed at times really isn't fair. OK, I'm done talking Yost for the year.

[areacodes]

I agree that Yost gets too much heat for the relative impact he had on losses last season. Gopher you bring up a good point about Villy; everyone says that he was overworked last year, but if we would have used him less, Brewers fans would've been screaming at Ned for leaving Villy in the pen while throwing Aquino/Spurling in a 1 run game. Either way he's stupid.

 

I yelled at Yost multiple times last season (Mench v. Dempster is a prime candidate) but the way he gets slammed at times really isn't fair. OK, I'm done talking Yost for the year.

The same situation happened with the rest of the pen too. People would complain that Coco was being used too much and that he'd get overworked and then they'd complain that Yost didn't bring in Coco in the bottom of the 8th to get out of the jam. In the eyes of many here at BF.net Yost is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. I was shocked throughout the course of the year at how much Nedly got dumped on for his use of the pen and how little Melvin was blamed for what he brought in or how little the players were held accountable for their poor performance. I know these points have been brought up before and I know some, like FTJ, have expressed their feelings about Melvin, the players and Yost for their roles in the bullpen disaster of '07 but a majority on here think it is all Ned's fault.

 

[gregmag]

a majority on here think it is all Ned's fault.

 

This is the kind of overgeneralization that drives me absolutely nuts. "Majority" is simply unprovable, but "all" is what really annoys me. Loads of people on the board, including plenty who think Ned should have been fired, have criticized players for failing to put up and/or Melvin for failing to get the right players. You seem to be using the rhetorical strategy where if you paint the people who disagree with you as stupid or unreasonable, you can win the argument without actually saying anything persuasive.

 

People on this board expressed concern in the first half that Yost was overusing his best relievers, including Coco and Villanueva. Anyone who knew about the effects of overuse of pitchers could read the writing on that wall. No matter how hard you try, you can't just rewrite history and make an idiot of everybody who has advocated firing Yost. I agree with the idea that he takes disproportionate heat for the team's failings. Managers always do. I also agree that the bullpen meltdown had multiple causes, but that doesn't let Yost off the hook for his role.

 

Yost has been here longer than most of the players; he's a proven commodity; and he still does a lot of things badly, his role in bullpen maintenance / management among them. Firing the manager is never entirely fair, hence the old maxim about not being able to fire the whole team. But Yost has had plenty of time to improve as an in-game strategist, and he hasn't done it. The Brewers did "fire" Estrada, Mench, and Wise for lesser failures, IMHO, than those Yost has demonstrated over a longer time.

 

Greg.

[TooLiveBrew]

Oh c'mon. First of all, anytime a pitcher struggles, I know it's "cool" to say that it was Yost's fault no matter what, but I'd love to see what people would have said if he wouldn't have used one of his best relievers in the first half last year because he didn't "want to tire him out". I'm sure people would have wanted to storm Miller Park.

 

It's so easy to play the over-generalization card in this. That's fine, but it doesn't pay attention to the issue at hand. "Cool" doesn't do squat for me. It's really not complex - just look at the usage of each pitcher. By May 31, Villy had logged 34 1/3 IP. After limiting Marmol to an avg. of 7 5-IP starts down at Iowa (plus one RP appearance), they babied his arm the rest of the way through the season - making his highest IP/mo. total 16 2/3 (marmol hit MLB 5/19/07).

 

Villy threw 13 IP in April, but was over Marmol's IP high each month save August, by which time his arm looked like it was starting to fall off. Then he obviously went to AAA & returned as a SP. If the Brewers had been more wise about his usage, they'd have had a top-notch RP all season long, just like the Cubs did. It was no accident that Marmol was ready to go the whole year he was up - they took great care in not over-exerting his young arm.

[Ennder]

Second, Carlos Villanueva is not as good as Carlos Marmol. At least not as a reliever

Carlos Marmol isn't even as good as Carlos Marmol to be honest. The closest pitcher I've seen to Marmol is Turnbow, nasty stuff but if hitters learn not to swing he's in trouble (5.1 BB/9 in 2nd half last yaer and over 5 BB/9 in the minors with MLEs)..