Brewers sign Mike Cameron (1yr/$6.22 mil + 2009 Team Option)

[Ennder]

I hope this works out since we're now banking on a 35 year old OF to come in and essentially lead our offense/defense to the playoffs.

 

 

 

That is a little over the top, especially since the other options are guys coming off of injuries, Lofton who is even older or Feliz who can't hit. This move improves our defense at two positions and makes Gross our #4 OF instead of a #3. Even if Cameron doesn't help the offense he has helped the team.

[kramnoj]

" In my opinion, Hall isn't in the same league as the rest of the young guys."

 

 

 

I don't think many people have that opinion. He doesn't need to be for this to be a good deal. He will improve the defense at 3B over last year, and he will be replaced by someone who will be better at CF. Braun is being moved to a position where he should be better, and even if for some reason he isn't, should impact the team less.

[TheCouga23]

I hope this works out since we're now banking on a 35 year old OF to come in and essentially lead our offense/defense to the playoffs.

I don't really think we're banking on him at all. Cameron's contract status is very favorable to us, and he's probably going to be our fifth best hitter at best. We're banking on Weeks to rebound, and Fielder, Braun and Hart to remain productive, and Hardy and Hall to hold their own. Our players are young on this team, and may still improve over last year. Hart could be even better. Weeks surely can. It would be hard for Fielder and Braun to be better without turning into Babe Ruth, but I think it's highly unlikely that they will regress much. If anything, we're counting on the young core of this team to mature (including the pitching). Cameron is just supplemental, and improves our defense.

 

[JJHardy7]

That is a little over the top, especially since the other options are guys coming off of injuries, Lofton who is even older or Feliz who can't hit. This move improves our defense at two positions and makes Gross our #4 OF instead of a #3. Even if Cameron doesn't help the offense he has helped the team.

 

The Brewers could've traded for a player not named Lofton or Feliz. I just seeing this as a temporary move. I still am not sold that Hall is going to be even average at 3B. He's played 80 somes games in the bigs their (his most was 3 years ago and he didn't even play 50 games there that year). Cameron isn't going to get any better with age and is suspended the first 25 games. What do we do for the first 25 games? Did the PEDs help Cameron perform better and/or stay healthy and hide up any injuries that most 35 year baseball players have?

 

Braun would've been fine at 3B. I know we're in the win now mode, but this team still faces some of the same obstacles it faced before signing Cameron. Hall doesn't appear to happy about being moved. He even stated that he needs to watch out for his own dignity. That's not exactly a great thing to hear.

[Ennder]

Braun would've been fine at 3B

 

 

 

I and most pro scouts and most people who study fielding in baseball disagree. Braun was a complete disaster at 3B in the minors and last season and almost offset all of his offense with his defense. It is hard to get a 2-3 win move in this game and Cameron in CF, Hall at 3B and Braun to LF probably gives us in the range of 2-3 wins and that doesn't include the offensive upgrade he brings between CF and the #4 OF slot.

[JJHardy7]

I and most pro scouts and most people who study fielding in baseball disagree.

 

What could he physically not do? I think Fielder's short stature is cause for some of the infield throwing errors and I think Braun's inexperience at the position aren't factors that can just be tossed aside.

[endaround]

Braun could not get to balls that 3B get to. It was not just his throwing, which is what I think most people don't understand. He had huge problems with lateral movement and seemed average to below on charging balls.

[Ennder]

If Braun had made 0 errors last year he STILL would have been way below average at the position. It was not just the errors that caused the problems. He is bad at getting to balls in his zone, bad at getting to balls out of his zone, bad at throwing the ball, bad at fielding bunts.

 

The best case scenario is he improves to 2nd worse 3B in baseball this season, there is no way he sniffs average or even just below average. That might sound harsh but this is not his first year at 3B, this isn't like say Hall who just switched to CF so had some excuse. If Braun is still this bad after 2 years at the position and with most scouts saying he is going to have to move, I tend to agree he should be moved.

[JJHardy7]

Braun could not get to balls that 3B get to. It was not just his throwing, which is what I think most people don't understand. He had huge problems with lateral movement and seemed average to below on charging balls.

 

Again -- physically what could he not do? Are you stating that his foot speed is slow? Or something in that area?

 

I know it's not about the errors, but I do find it kind of odd that the scouts that came to Nashville and the entire Nashville staff felt Braun would be a good 3B in time. They could all be wrong, but I don't think it's this clear picture that Braun was never going to be average. Braun was exactly what the Nashville brass thought he'd be defensively in Milwaukee. It is the exact reason the Brewers ideally would've kept him in Nashville for the entire 2007 campaign. He was possibly the most athletic player the Brewers have had come through Huntsville and Nashville -- per scouts and coaches at both organizations.

[kramnoj]

"I still am not sold that Hall is going to be even average at 3B. "

 

 

 

He doesn't have to be. He can be below average, and still be an upgrade over Braun. This also works because Hall was one of the worst CF in the majors last year.

[Ennder]

Here's what Kevin Goldstein wrote about him last December.

Despite the tools, Braun is still inadequate at the hot corner. His footwork is bad, and while he has plus arm strength, his throws lack accuracy. His bat is nearly major league ready, so if the glove doesn't catch up fast enough, he could be moved to right field. The bat will play anywhere.

Tom Tango's Fans Scouting Report:

 Speed 60 Arm Strength 57 First Step 52 Instincts 50 Hands 25 Release 9 Arm Accuracy 0









.

Unfortunately, his hands are bad, and his release and throwing accuracy are off-the-charts bad. And double unfortunately, these would tend to be the categories that are most important for a third baseman; speed doesn't matter much at all, for instance.

Are these things that Braun can work on? Perhaps: I'd certainly hold out more hope that a coach could improve a player's accuracy and release than his arm strength. But the thing is, once a player reaches the major leagues for a competitive club, there isn't much room for experimentation. What's the upside to that experiment? Braun goes from being a way below-average defender at third base to a somewhat below-average one. And then you have to move him in a couple years anyway once he bulks up and slows down. What's the downside? Braun can't or won't improve, or he takes a long time to do so, costing the Brewers runs in the field each week while the experiment in progress. Even worse, you could trigger a crisis of confidence, or detract from his work on his hitting approach, which requires more improvement than you might think. And all of this for what benefit? National League third basemen hit .280/.348/.456 last year, which is actually a bit better than the .275/.344/.442 it got out of its right fielders, and only slightly worse than the .278/.358/.478 from the left field position. The gap in the defensive spectrum between third base and corner outfield is small as compared with the gap between third base and center field or second base.

Excerpts from [url=http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=609]http://www.baseballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=609[/url]

 

 

There really is not a reason to leave him at 3B and there is no reason to think he won't be an average OFer since he has the basic tools that are most important to an OF, just not the tools you need at 3B.

[areacodes]

Braun could not get to balls that 3B get to. It was not just his throwing, which is what I think most people don't understand. He had huge problems with lateral movement and seemed average to below on charging balls.

 

Again -- physically what could he not do? Are you stating that his foot speed is slow? Or something in that area?

 

I know it's not about the errors, but I do find it kind of odd that the scouts that came to Nashville and the entire Nashville staff felt Braun would be a good 3B in time. They could all be wrong, but I don't think it's this clear picture that Braun was never going to be average. Braun was exactly what the Nashville brass thought he'd be defensively in Milwaukee. It is the exact reason the Brewers ideally would've kept him in Nashville for the entire 2007 campaign. He was possibly the most athletic player the Brewers have had come through Huntsville and Nashville -- per scouts and coaches at both organizations.

Just because he is athletic does not mean he will be good at third. There have been plenty of good, even great, athletes that have failed to adequately play baseball. The thing that I keep seeing thrown around is that he can improve, and I used to be in that group, but when I think about how much he needed to improve just to become "bad" it was time for a move. And don't get me wrong, I personally don't believe that Hall is that good at third either, it is just that he doesn't have to be to become a huge improvement for our defense.

 

On a side note, I do remember the Nashville coaching staff talk about how good of an athlete Braun was and that he "could" improve his defense with enough work, but I don't remember reading anything from scouts saying the same. If I remember correctly, which is always a tricky thing, the scouts continued to repeat how Braun needed to be moved to left.

 

[twobrewers]

I know it's not about the errors, but I do find it kind of odd that the scouts that came to Nashville and the entire Nashville staff felt Braun would be a good 3B in time.

Don't forget - scout aren't bias. The Nashville coaching staff has to stick with the company line.

 

Can you imagine Kremblas saying "Yeah, he is really bad at 3B. I can't fathom why we aren't moving him to LF now instead of waiting till he is in MLB"?

[TheCrew07]

Actually he's not. He's actually the opposite of fluid he's rather stiff. Braun has very stiff hips/ torso that cause his feet to have to have to "catch up" with the rest of his body when he fields. If you watch him he's always off balance when he makes plays. His problems should be greatly minimized in the OF.

I agree with you that he's stiff through the core, but even at the highschool level I've seen young men overcome that with stretching and strength. I still think that given time he we would have become adequate, but it's moot now. When I talk about fluid, I was more referring to how they glide around the bases, than how they field ground balls. Both Hart and now Braun didn't stick in the infield, but both are graceful athletes. I should have made the distinction, my bad.

[JJHardy7]

Don't forget - scout aren't bias. The Nashville coaching staff has to stick with the company line.

 

There were scouts who saw him play in Huntsville and Nashville that were of the opinion that Braun would at least be average in time. It's not like Braun has played 3B his entire life. He only played there a few seasons. I still think Braun has a ton more value at 3B (if he improves) than he does in the OF. There won't be too many players that will be able to match his offensive produciton at 3B. If we'd have gone after a true 3B, I'd be more at ease with this move, but it's just a stopgap. We have a huge organizational hole at 3B now and an old OF is the replacement. If Hall goes down with an injury, Counsell will be back at 3B -- and we'll be right where we were at the beginning of 2007 in some areas.

[Oldcity]

But there won't be too many players who match his production as a corner outfielder either, if he's anything close to what he showed last season. It's not like a solid hitting shortstop who becomes below average when you move him to third. Braun's monster bat can play anywhere and still be well above average.

[TooLiveBrew]

If Hall goes down with an injury, Counsell will be back at 3B -- and we'll be right where we were at the beginning of 2007 in some areas.

 

Except that our offensive production from LF is going to be vastly improved, and the all-around output from CF is much better than in 2007, too.

[kramnoj]

"If Hall goes down with an injury,"

 

 

 

Wouldn't Dillon/Counsell be the more likely stopgap if Hall were to be injured? It is possible that Braun could have become a better 3B over time. But 2008 may be the best shot the Brewers have at competing for a championship, and they couldn't allow Braun any further on the job training.

[areacodes]

I still think Braun has a ton more value at 3B (if he improves) than he does in the OF. There won't be too many players that will be able to match his offensive produciton at 3B.

While there aren't many players who could match his offensive production there also are not many players who have been as bad defensively. We are as close as the Brewers will be to a "win-now" mode and this is one of the resulting moves. We no longer have time to experiment at the ML level, if this were the 2002 Brewers I'd say leave Braun at 3rd until we are competitive and he needs to be moved... we'll we are now at that stage.

Also, since Braun will have "less value" in LF than he would at 3rd wouldn't that make him easier to retain in the future (if he had the time to become serviceable at 3rd)?

 

[Ennder]

Here are the lines by position last season in the NL.

3B - .280/.348/.456/.805
LF - .278/.358/.478/.835
RF - .275/.344/.442/.786

If he is able to play in RF eventually which people think he can do, his offense will be just as useful there as at 3B if not moreso.

[endaround]

Don't forget - scout aren't bias. The Nashville coaching staff has to stick with the company line.

 

There were scouts who saw him play in Huntsville and Nashville that were of the opinion that Braun would at least be average in time. It's not like Braun has played 3B his entire life. He only played there a few seasons. I still think Braun has a ton more value at 3B (if he improves) than he does in the OF. There won't be too many players that will be able to match his offensive produciton at 3B. If we'd have gone after a true 3B, I'd be more at ease with this move, but it's just a stopgap. We have a huge organizational hole at 3B now and an old OF is the replacement. If Hall goes down with an injury, Counsell will be back at 3B -- and we'll be right where we were at the beginning of 2007 in some areas.

Braun playing 3B made it a huge hole. And Hall is under control for four seasons. Thats a large amount of time.

 

[splitterpfj]

I view the Cameron signing the same way I've viewed every other move the team has made this off-season. This isn't a glamorous move, but it does fill an obvious need, and the contract isn't horrible. I really hadn't given much thought to the Brewers adding Cameron, but now that it's happened, I do think he was the best remaining option on the market.

 

 

 

Kendall, Mota, Riske, Gagne, Torres and Cameron - not one truly exciting addition in the mix, but as a group, these players offer the team the chance to be better than last year, and none of these moves will prevent the team from paying the core players going forward.

 

 

 

I think Melvin has done a great job with his roster, I wish we had Cordero for next season instead of Gagne, but otherwise, I see every one of these moves as an immediate improvement over what was.

 

 

 

All of these guys have warts, it makes sense to expect some of them to fail, but if you're adding through free agency, this is the level of player you're dealing with if you're Milwaukee. The defense will absolutely be better, and the bullpen will be deeper, I think those two facts are obvious. Whether this translates into more wins remains to be seen, but I'd have been interested in every one of these players if I were GM.

[TooLiveBrew]

If he is able to play in RF eventually which people think he can do, his offense will be just as useful there as at 3B if not moreso.

 

But in the meantime, let's review some guys who are currently playing 'defense' in LF on an everyday basis...

 

Manny Ramirez

Adam Dunn

Pat Burrell

Carlos Lee

Raul Ibanez

Garret Anderson

Josh Willingham

Chris Duncan

Luis Gonzalez

Barry Bonds (ok not 'everyday', but logged 842 innings there in '07)

 

EDIT: Can we still look to add Morgan Ensberg as a reserve? I'm all about that.

[skyking162]

Here are the lines by position last season in the NL.

 

3B - .280/.348/.456/.805

LF - .278/.358/.478/.835

RF - .275/.344/.442/.786

 

If he is able to play in RF eventually which people think he can do, his offense will be just as useful there as at 3B if not moreso.

You can't just compare the offensive lines, though. It depends on the difficulty of position. I don't think anyone would argue that right field is just as difficult to play as 3B. 3B is right in the middle of the spectrum, with RF about five runs less valuable. Somewhat surprisingly, 2B is pretty equivalent to 3B, even though the offensive output is much less.

Moving Braun to LF should actually increase his value, because his skills fit left field better. Sure, he gets docked some credit for playing an easier position, but he'll more than make that up in less crapitude.

 

The Milwaukee organization really needs to start valuing fielding a bit more in its drafting patterns.

[mothershipconnection]

If he is able to play in RF eventually which people think he can do, his offense will be just as useful there as at 3B if not moreso.

 

 

 

Is that a historical trend, though, or indicative of only the current state of talent at these positions? (I'm genuinely asking, as I can't remember where to get those numbers).