Brewers sign Mike Cameron (1yr/$6.22 mil + 2009 Team Option)

[valpocrewsader]

If Hall is really moving to 3B, this is the best news I've heard in a long, long time. And not because it means moving Braun away from the infield (I think he had potential), but because I've been waiting for Hall to be installed as our everyday 3B since, like, 2004. I think he will flourish there. Yes! I also love the defensive upgrade in CF, many know I hated Hall's D out there. Now, instead of hoping for improvement, we're guaranteed an upgrade.

 

 

 

I'm back to being optimistic about 2008 again. The chain reaction of this move has a BIG effect.

 

 

 

Only problem is too many righties in the regular lineup, but it's a good excuse to get Gross and Gwynn some playing time and rest a starter here and there. I guess the other prblem is his suspension. Missing 15% of the season is not to be taken lightly. Cameron can fully participate in Spring Training, right??

[Brian the Automator]

Only problem is too many righties in the regular lineup, but it's a good excuse to get Gross and Gwynn some playing time and rest a starter here and there. I guess the other prblem is his suspension. Missing 15% of the season is not to be taken lightly. Cameron can fully participate in Spring Training, right??

Yes, he ca participate in Spring Training. My question would be, would he be able to play in any minor league or instructional-league games, or would he have to come in "cold"? It would be nice if he could prime up a bit.

 

[twobrewers]

Does Mike Cameron feel as comfortable coming to Milwaukee if Fielder, Hall, Weeks, and TGJ aren't here? Did that help sway his decision to choose Milwaukee over the Yankees? Does their presence make Milwaukee a desirable place for African American ballplayers? If so, does anyone who lived through the Gary Sheffield saga find that to be a little... refreshing?

I thought about that too actually. I know MLB has been having some problems keeping African-Americans involved in baseball and has taken some steps to keep the game in the "inner city".

 

We have got to be the blackest team in MLB.

 

Cameron can fully participate in Spring Training, right??

The JS this morning reported that he can fully participate in Spring Training. He can also spend the last 5 games of his suspension in the minor leagues getting ready for the MLB promotion.

 

As for Bill Hall being selfish. I was upset with him at many points last year. (Just once, I want to see him take off running on a long drive rather than waiting to see if it goes over the fence.) But I am convinced this deal doesn't happen without his approval. So he does deserve some credit.

[Snuffzilla]

Question. HOw many Games has Braun Played in LF? In Majors or Minors? Can he hit a Cutoff Man? Seems many just consider this Move Easy & 'Automatic'. With a Young Player Struggling Defensively is asking him to Change Positions - again - a good Idea? I do like the Addition of Cameron. Speed & 'D' will help. I would think Billy would be able to Adapt to LF more Rapidly than Ryan. I expected a nice BOunceback Year Offensively w/ Hall seeing that CF would no longer be so Foreign to him. Appears that's Up in Smoke. But...Melvins been right quite Consistently w/ his Acquisitions. So he deserves the Benefit of the Doubt...

[homer]

I have no doubt that Braun will struggle at times in LF - especially early in the season. And I also have no doubt that people will scream and yell that he should never have been moved after he boots a ball that allows a run. But I do think he won't be involved in as many plays in LF which will minimize the impact his potentially bad defense will have. If Adam Dunn and Pat Burrell can play left field and still add a lot of value, so can Ryan Braun.

[davego]

Ryan can do his best 'Carlos Lee' impersonation in LF. That would be good enough.

[endaround]

Well Lee actually does a Bob Uecker impersonation. You know, wait until the ball stops rolling and then pick it up.

[mothershipconnection]

Are we all really convinced that Hall is going to be that good of a 3B? He's only played 84 games there (1/2 a full season) in the bigs.

 

 

 

Based on my own crude naked eye observations, I'm not worried about it. I never thought he looked phenomenal, but certainly was adequate and the gap between him and Braun huge. Also, I do remember hearing some opinions that some scout-types had said that Hall had great tools at third and could develop into a top-flight 3B.

 

 

 

At this point our only real defensive question marks, IMO, are Braun in LF and Weeks at 2B, though Rickie has made progress and will hopefully be able to establish himself as an average 2B this season.

[TooLiveBrew]

I was personally told by a member of the coaching staff in October...

 

Thanks for that info, bk. Interesting - whether people think it's relevant or not.

The anti Cameron signing folks have already summed my thoughts on why Cameron doesn't fit at all except for his defense.

This is the first Melvin move that is a head scratcher to me, I just don't like it at all. I slept on it before posting, but I dont' feel any better about it today.

 

How does he not fit? That's an honest question, because in my eyes he so clearly fills a bunch of our team needs. He draws a lot of BBs, he has power, he plays above-average D in CF, and most importantly... the total value of the move allows Braun to not horrificly cancel out the majority of his incredible hitting by being stuck at 3B. I honestly can't find one way that Cameron doesn't fit, unless strikeouts drive you insane - because he does strike out a lot.

[JJHardy7]

But I do think he won't be involved in as many plays in LF which will minimize the impact his potentially bad defense will have.

 

These are comments I don't understand. It's not like Braun is 280 pounds and can't run. He's a darn good athlete -- easily one of the best on the team. He's raw on defense and that doesn't mean we have to "hide" him. He needs experience. Moving him after one year in the bigs to move Hall back to third so that we can have a CF for a year probably is good for 2008, but what do we do in 2009? I just feel that this is going to be a routine.

 

How is Cameron this drastic improvement in CF? I don't understand that. The drastic improvement most of bf.net wanted was at 3rd base -- and now we have someone who has played 1/2 of a complete season at 3b. And he just has to be better than Braun? I thought we wanted to improve this team...2008 Braun would've been better than 2007 Braun. I hope this works out and I also hope Braun didn't waste too much time taking groundballs everyday.

 

I think sometimes we have to be careful what we wish for -- two players playing new positions that they haven't played in at least a year. Will Hall be able to step in smoothly and not miss a beat? I guess we'll find out, but I do like the fact that Hall will now be able to play SS and 2B to give JJ and Rickie days off. Dillon backing up 2B is not a site I wante to see.

[TooLiveBrew]

How is Cameron this drastic improvement in CF?

 

Because even if Hall is below-average (which would be the worst-possible scenario imo), he's light-years better than Braun. Not just 'a bit' better. Cameron helps our D immensely through this indirect impact, and provides around or over 60 BBs for a 'full' (at most 137 games) season, in addition to bringing 20-25 HR pop over that shortened 'full' season.

 

Plus, the deal is incredibly Brewers-friendly. A win all around by Melvin & Co.

 

CRAZY JOE DILLON just has to stick as a nickname...

 

I heard he once got lost in the wilderness, and survived by catching fish with his bare hands - and eating them raw... that is, until he figured out how to make a fire using twigs & the 5/8" hex bolt he had in his vest pocket.

[homer]

These are comments I don't understand. It's not like Braun is 280 pounds and can't run. He's a darn good athlete -- easily one of the best on the team. He's raw on defense and that doesn't mean we have to "hide" him. He needs experience. Moving him after one year in the bigs to move Hall back to third so that we can have a CF for a year probably is good for 2008, but what do we do in 2009? I just feel that this is going to be a routine.

 

 

 

I was referring to people that say "But if he was so bad at 3rd what makes you think he'll be better in LF?". I don't think he'll be that bad in LF but even if he is, he won't see as much action as a 3B which minimizes the impact.

[TheCrew07]

I felt the Crew's 2 biggest problems were OBP and pitching coming into the offseason. Cameron isn't an OBP guy, he's a defensive player signed as a stop gap. I know there's potential to gain more in him going from Petco to Miller if you're into that sort of thing, I understand that line of thinking and it looks good on paper, I'm just not sure I agree with it. I get how mathematically you can add wins here and subtract wins there based on offensive stats over the course of the season. Games are won and lost in the short term though and I have a hard time believing one guy and the domino effect of moves is going to have that great of an impact to make this a 89-90 win team.

 

Yes Braun was horrible defensively, I have no doubt he can handle the outfield and continue to rake but now they've moved Hall from where he could be a special player offensively and put him in a corner spot where he's just another guy. In my opinion people get way too caught up in metrics, both Braun and Hall would have improved, I don't know why this notion that Braun is limited atheletically keeps picking up steam. He's as fluid a natural athelete as Hart, in fact he's as fluid a natural athelete as the Brewers have had in some time. I realize there is much more to sports than pure talent, but he's plenty talented enough to handle any position on the diamond. I get how outs that are not made get turned into more PAs and Pitches for the Pitchers, but on the whole, the pitching problems were a result of poor pitch selection and lack of execution than defense. Again, how many times did pitchers give up a walk or hit when they were ahead in the count 0-2 and 1-2? For me personally, that's was the most frustrating part of watching the games last year (admittedly when football started in August I didn't catch many games the rest of year)

 

Cameron is on the downside of his career and I don't see him improving at all in any part of his game, he is what he is... Hall at least has the potential to improve both defensively and offensively and become a special player at that position. Braun had the potential to improve defensively and become serviceable at the position.

 

Long term I don't like the hole this leaves at 3B in the organization, I had no problem moving Braun to LF for an established 3B. However the best 3B in the system will be AA next year in Gamel, and he's arguably worse defensively than Braun and an OF at MLB, behind him there's no one who excites me. Do we all of a sudden become horrible defensively again with Hart in center and Braun/Laporta on the corners in 2009 if Laporta works out? I can see how this solution helps for 2008, but long term I just don't see how acquiring Cameron makes sense. I know many people love Hall, but he's just a guy at 3B, average offensively and maybe average to slightly below defensively.

 

TLB you did nail the SO thing, it's a personal pet peeve of mine to strike out with runners in scoring position. Yes I do understand the statistical arguement that a SO is better than a double play and all of that. However, with a runner on 3rd and less than 2 outs just please put the ball in play. That's why I liked a guy like Carlos Lee, he seemed to get the majority of cheap RBIs. Another free swinging (though that may not be a fair assessment of Cameron) hitter just doesn't appeal to me. Yes his OBP will be better than Menkins, but how big of an upgrade will he really be? I'm not talking about on paper, I talking about having runners in scoring position and being confident that something positive will happen. Maybe it's just a hangover from last season but I was always surprised when certain players came through with RBIs in clutch situations. Please don't interpet that to mean that I'd like to open up another discussion about "clutch" hitting as I that's not my intent. I'm just suggesting that do high SO rates in key situations most of the time when we were on 1rst and 2nd or 2nd and 3rd with 2 outs I was not expecting to score runs. Maybe I became a pessimist over the course of the season but I just don't see how aquiring Cameron makes this team appreciably better, it's pretty much the exact same thing I thought about Linebrink trade.

 

This is just a deal I have hard team seeing the grand scheme with. If Hall was going back to 3rd base why not just put Hart in CF, Hall at 3B, and Braun in RF last year? Why all the drama? I'm just having a real hard time getting behind the logic of this deal, I understand it, I just don't agree with it. Right now the biggest positive I can see is acquiring Cameron eliminates another platoon, which is a good thing in my opinion. However with all of the bullpen changes I would have been happy with the status quoand a Gross/Dillon platoon in the OF, probably naively so. To me this was acquiring someone for the sake of acquiring someone, I just have a hard time believing this team will improve dramatically on defense and have it actually impact the pitching. I think the Kendell deal will have more impact on the pitching than the defense behind it, as again, I thought problems pitching wise were with the pitch selection and execution of the game plan.

[theavrock]

I guess I am not sure what some people don't get a bout Braun's D. He was not just bad, he was historically bad. Even if he improves by 100% he is still below average defensively. We lost games last year because of our defense. With the improvement of our young core we have the ability to win and win now. There is no reason we should wait for Braun to improve, because even if he does he still will be below average defensively.

 

ALso how is there a hole in 3B. Bill Hall will be our 3B for years to come and an average to above average one at that. In 2009 I see an OF of Braun LF, Hart CF and LaPorta RF with an infield of Hall, Hardy, Weeks and Fielder with Kendall behind the plate. Although Hart isn't amazing in CF he is far from awful.

 

We fixed the defensive issues. Not sure how you can say Cameron is not an OBP guy. He gets on base at roughly 60-80 points higher than his BA and works the count averaging around 4 P/PA. He is the professional hitter that DM was looking for. His batting average will flucuate kind of like Jenks did over his time, but he easily can be a 20-20 guy. Also even though he does strike out, he is a .300+ hitter with RISP.

 

The organization is realizing they were wrong about Braun and he will not be a good defensive 3b. THIS DOES NOT MAKE HIM A BAD PLAYER. Ryan Braun is one of my favorites but he just cannot play 3b. He will be fine in the OF. The organization is also realizing that "next year" is here and its time to win. We are not in the player development mode anymore. It is time to maximize (within reason) what we have and beat the hell out of the Cubs and the rest of the Central.

[dadofandrew]

I doubt Hall will play SS or 2B to give others time off, I am not aware of a single everyday INF that bounces around like that. I see Counsell and Dillon being the utility INF's, and Hall playing 3B every day.

 

 

 

Now, if JJ or Rickie bang up their knee and miss 100+ games, then, it might be possible.

[TheCrew07]

If you believe Hall is the answer at 3B, Cameron will solve the OBP issues this team has, and all of the defensive issues were addressed then I'm sure you're correct Theavrock. There's really nothing to debate this is a matter of opinion, and at the end of the season we'll know, just like we did with Linebrink.

[trwi7]

Yes, he ca participate in Spring Training. My question would be, would he be able to play in any minor league or instructional-league games, or would he have to come in "cold"? It would be nice if he could prime up a bit.

He can go to Arizona for the instructional league and play in the minors for 5 games I think.

[Blazer25]

I don't know why this notion that Braun is limited atheletically keeps picking up steam. He's as fluid a natural athelete as Hart, in fact he's as fluid a natural athelete as the Brewers have had in some time.

Actually he's not. He's actually the opposite of fluid he's rather stiff. Braun has very stiff hips/ torso that cause his feet to have to have to "catch up" with the rest of his body when he fields. If you watch him he's always off balance when he makes plays. His problems should be greatly minimized in the OF.

 

JJ Hardy would be your fluid fielder. If you want a better example of fluid watch someone like Edgar Renteria take ground balls.

 

I've been beating the Braun to the OF drum since we drafted him. I saw him in college and knew he was made to play a corner OF spot. Stiff players usually end up out there.

[Tbadder]

Is Green better than we think? Arrives 2009?

[logan82]

bobskube wrote

I just screamed. I finally had enough of this Bill Hall lovefest.

I have to say that the Hall love seems pretty tame this offseason compared to last year.

 

I din't like Braun's defense at 3B, but I think moving Hall ther improves our defense at 3B from historically bad to worse than average. So about one step up.

[ClosetBrewerFan]

I think I like Hall/Braun shifting positions more than I like Cameron being signed. However, this move just plugged our 3B situation for years to come. Hall is signed thru 2010 (club option for 2011). So I don't expect Hall to be move again. Even if Cameron is let go next year, it is easier to find an OF than it is a 3B.

 

My calculations show the team salary is now close to $80M. I think from here on out the team will be looking to maintain that or decrease it some.

[Ayt]

Does anyone have any of the more advanced defensive metrics on Cameron? I'm wondering how much he's fallen off in recent years and how he compares to Hall from last year.

[kramnoj]

UZR had Cameron as the 3rd best CF in the NL last year with +7. Hall last year was 2nd worst in the majors with -16. That 23 run difference would be worth more than 2 Wins.

 

 

 

http://skyking162.com/2008/01/mike-cameron-savior/ is a blog entry that does a good job of explaining all the ramifications of the move.

[Ayt]

Thanks. That was exactly what I was looking for.

[JJHardy7]

ALso how is there a hole in 3B. Bill Hall will be our 3B for years to come and an average to above average one at that. In 2009 I see an OF of Braun LF, Hart CF and LaPorta RF with an infield of Hall, Hardy, Weeks and Fielder with Kendall behind the plate. Although Hart isn't amazing in CF he is far from awful.

 

This is all on the assumption that Bill Hall will play like he did in 2006 and that he's going to easily roll back to 3B (remember he's played around 80 games at 3B -- in his entire career). In my opinion, Hall isn't in the same league as the rest of the young guys. He'll be 28 by the start of 2009 (which isn't old -- it will just be a position that we'll need to develop in the minors) and I don't think LaPorta will be starting out in Milwaukee in 2009.

 

This may only be a one year deal and it doesn't strap down the Brewers financial situation, but it has completed shifted our minor league needs with one move. Successful small market teams don't make a ton of win now moves and remain competitive every year. I hope this works out since we're now banking on a 35 year old OF to come in and essentially lead our offense/defense to the playoffs.