the Bill Hall Paradox

[DrWood]

Melvin says he doesn't want to move Hall again, saying he assumes Billy would be reluctant. (management rule #1, don't assume you know what your employees want) Then says he's considering signing a CF, but to be fair to Billy, he would then try to trade him to get a 3b (presumably a 3b). But then Hall would be moving in two ways: he'd be moving to a new team, and he'd probably be moving back to the INF anyway. it doesn't add up to me.

[Gopher74]

Melvin says he doesn't want to move Hall again, saying he assumes Billy would be reluctant. (management rule #1, don't assume you know what your employees want) Then says he's considering signing a CF, but to be fair to Billy, he would then try to trade him to get a 3b (presumably a 3b). But then Hall would be moving in two ways: he'd be moving to a new team, and he'd probably be moving back to the INF anyway. it doesn't add up to me.

I hadn't heard that Melvin told Hall he'd try to trade him away so that he didn't have to move.

 

The only thing I'd read was Melvin saying that he spoke to Hall, or Yost spoke to Hall about the chance that he may have him move to 3rd base for the benefit of the team, to which Hall was receptive. I'm not saying he didn't say that, I'm just curious where you heard/read that?

[And That]

I hadn't heard that Melvin told Hall he'd try to trade him away so that he didn't have to move.

Yah, me neither. Proof?

 

[rluzinski]

Proof is for the weak.

[AdvantageSchneider]

Melvin "I don't want to move Hall back to the IF" = Obi Wan "These aren't the droids you're looking for"

 

It's not a lie if you believe it.

[pogokat]

i seriously doubt hall would care that mcuh about whether he's a cf or a 3b...

 

 

 

i'm sure his agent could easily show him he stands to make great money at both of those positions...if i was him, i'd only be reluctant about moving to a corner spot...

[GAME05]

well, if Hall is traded to another team and they make him play catcher and he hates it, it's not really our problem anymore.

 

 

 

he hadn't moved to CF yet, but before that Hall had always said he enjoyed playing SS the most, and you'd have to think that's where a new team would want him playing.

[DrWood]

haudricourt's blog seems to have changed. It was related to the possibility of signing Cameron. Cameron would move to CF and either Hall would move to a new position or new team; that may have been tom's conjecture. Melvin expressed concern about moving hall to a new position, suggesting it was unfair to hall, but indicating he didn't actually ask hall about it. Now TH's blog seems to indicate that Melvin has exhausted all opportunities to obtain a 3b.

[DrWood]

ok found it:

 

Signing Cameron means moving or trading Hall

 

By Tom Haudricourt

 

Wednesday, Jan 9 2008, 10:50 PM

 

Yet another source has confirmed to me tonight that the Brewers are actively pursuing free agent centerfielder Mike Cameron.

 

 

 

That means one of two things: They're planning to move Bill Hall to yet another position or trade him in a deal for a leftfielder or third baseman.

 

 

 

Does moving Hall to third base warrant moving Ryan Braun to leftfield? Perhaps.

 

 

 

But if you sign Cameron and then trade Hall in a deal for an established third baseman or leftfielder, that also improves the Brewers' defense.

 

[snip]

 

and

 

 

 

Brewers mulling Cameron and others

 

By Tom Haudricourt

 

Thursday, Jan 10 2008, 04:56 PM

 

[snip]

 

 

 

 

 

"I think Billy's tired of moving and I'm not big on continuing to move guys around, either," said Melvin

 

[snip]

 

 

 

I believe I've the same idea worded more strongly by melvin somewhere, too.

[Gopher74]

Well, speculating that signing Cameron may mean that Hall either gets traded or has to move positions is much different than Melvin coming out and saying that if he signs Cameron he WILL try to trade him and telling Hall as much.

 

I think we can all speculate what may lie ahead if we sign Cameron, but coming out and saying that as a GM does nothing but cause problems.

[AdvantageSchneider]

Or you could read into another way and think that Bill is tired of moving, so Doug is saying that moving Hall to 3rd means he will be there for the next 3 years for the brewers. As opposed to him trying to play CF next year and not being good enough to hack it and having to move him or trade him. Bill I think would rather play in the IF anyway if he had his druthers.

[SZBrewerFan]

Wow, can someone explain to me where trading Billy Hall to sign Mike Cameron actually makes sense? Hall is 7 years younger than Cameron and is just about the same player offensively but Hall has a little more power potential. By the end of the year Bill was playing pretty solid D in centerfield and while Cameron is a gold glove calibur centerfielder this deal (or series of deals) would make no sense to me what so ever.

[Nottso]

I just don't get it at all. We had a glut of infielders, so Billy (a very good infielder) was moved to the outfield, where he did okay. He struggled at first, but ended up okay.

 

Currently we're short one infielder, due to the loss of Koskie and like it or not, Braun is terrible defensively. If we sign Cameron, why wouldn't it be Cameron in center, Braun in left, and Billy at 3b? Hart, of course, goes nowhere.

 

What am I missing here?

[gregmag]

Wow, can someone explain to me where trading Billy Hall to sign Mike Cameron actually makes sense? Hall is 7 years younger than Cameron and is just about the same player offensively but Hall has a little more power potential. By the end of the year Bill was playing pretty solid D in centerfield and while Cameron is a gold glove calibur centerfielder this deal (or series of deals) would make no sense to me what so ever.

I completely agree. I think getting Cameron only makes sense if (a) Hall agrees to move to 3B or (b) the Brewers know that somebody out there is prepared to overpay so drastically for Hall that they would clean up by moving him.

 

I've liked the idea of moving Hall to 3B and Braun to LF, but one thing it makes me wonder about is the whole Matt LaPorta plan. I know we generally shouldn't worry about minor leaguers' places on the MLB roster, because these things tend to sort themselves out. But LaPorta is 23, can only play 1B or LF, and could have an ETA of next spring. Even if the Brewers move LaPorta (or Braun) to 1B because they don't think they'll be able to keep Fielder, they won't want to trade Prince for three more years, leaving LaPorta without a position for as many as two MLB years. Again, I know these things usually work out, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

 

Greg.

[Tbadder]

I don't think there's a paradox here. What the Crew needs to do is admit moving Billy was a mistake. It's not like Braun had been a good defensive player in the minors and imploded up here--he was terrible from the beginning and really had no right playing 3B.

 

 

 

Most of Hall value came from his versatility, followed by his power. By making him a permanent fixture they've devalued him. Get him back to the infield where he belongs. This is Melvin's doing and he needs to take responsibilty for it.

[jazzytrav]

I tend to agree, Tbadder. It's starting to seem like the only reason Hall isn't moving back is management stubbornness. What could we possibly gain by signing Cameron and trading Billy? The only way that would work is if we got some kind of haul for Billy, and with his down year last year I can't believe that we would get good value for him right now.

 

 

 

If Cameron is signed, is seems pretty obvious to me (as it seems to the rest of you) that you put Cameron in center, move Billy to 3rd and Braun to left. I don't even know what argument could possibly be used to have anyone else in one of those three positions next season. And if I have to watch Counsell get 400 AB's because DM is too stubborn to move Hall back, i'm gonna be pissed.

[Ennder]

Nothing about Melvin's statements suggests that Hall wouldn't be moving back to 3B or that he would be traded if we signed Cameron. People are just reading things into what Haudricourt said.

[Gopher74]

Wow, can someone explain to me where trading Billy Hall to sign Mike Cameron actually makes sense? Hall is 7 years younger than Cameron and is just about the same player offensively but Hall has a little more power potential. By the end of the year Bill was playing pretty solid D in centerfield and while Cameron is a gold glove calibur centerfielder this deal (or series of deals) would make no sense to me what so ever.

Because it's not about Bill Hall vs Mike Cameron. Signing Cameron allows you to trade Hall for a guy like Teahen.

 

And the power thing is definitely arguable. Cameron's been a 20-30 HR threat his entire career. Hall's hit over 20 once.

 

[MillerParkSouth]

why are people wanting to trade Hall for Teahen? Hall is a better player and it's not like Teahen is a gold glove third baseman. If I recall correctly, he's not that good there. I think we'd be better off just moving Hall to third.

[TooLiveBrew]

And the power thing is definitely arguable. Cameron's been a 20-30 HR threat his entire career. Hall's hit over 20 once.

Cameron's played a ton more than Hall. Hall is a 20-30 HR threat every year, too. He's only had three seasons with enough PT to do it, though. And last year he was hurt a significant portion, or he might've run down 20 HR then, too.

 

Hall's had the three seasons with 475 or more TPAs, where Cameron has had 8 such campaigns. Using a counting stat like HR in that manner can be misleading.