Gossage Gets In the Hall, No One Else

[RobertR]

It all comes down to this nebulous "feared" thing with Rice. Apparently he wasn't feared much on the road where he hit .277/.330/.459 (.789) OPS for his career. Or after 1979. I looked at the Hall of Fame inductees for Outfielders, First Basemen, and DHs and Rice is among the worst there, excluding 19th Century guys I'm unfamiliar with. His rate stats don't measure up to most of them, and he retired early. his career numbers really don't measure up, and really all he has going for him is his peak. And his RBI total which is propped up from hitting in good lineups and a friendly ballpark pretty much his whole career. Lynn, Fisk, Yaz, Cooper/Scott, Boggs, and Evans were his teammates during his career and certainly helped give him RBI opportunities. Especially Boggs. And as good as that peak was, he only won one MVP. He finished ahead of Lynn twice in MVP races and Lynn finished ahead of him twice in MVP races during the 70s, which pretty much sums them up.

 

He wouldn't be the worst Hall of Famer, but he'd clearly be a very marginal one. I don't think he'd be in at all if he had played in Montreal.

 

Robert

[DrWood]

and really all he has going for him is his peak. And his RBI total which is propped up from hitting in good lineups and a friendly ballpark pretty much his whole career. Lynn, Fisk, Yaz, Cooper/Scott, Boggs, and Evans were his teammates during his career and certainly helped give him RBI opportunities. Especially Boggs.

 

and Boggs is the only one that was a better hitter, and no one was more dominating. the "dominating" thing seems to be the thing that you are missing. If you were in his presence, you would feel it. If Yaz is in the hall, rice should be. I hate Yaz, but I can see how his numbers validate his hall membership. rice was a more exceptional player, regardless of his numbers, and there is no way to change your mind on that issue, I believe. cheers, drwood.

[danzig6767]

It all comes down to this nebulous "feared" thing with Rice. Apparently he wasn't feared much on the road where he hit .277/.330/.459 (.789) OPS for his career. Or after 1979. I looked at the Hall of Fame inductees for Outfielders, First Basemen, and DHs and Rice is among the worst there, excluding 19th Century guys I'm unfamiliar with. His rate stats don't measure up to most of them, and he retired early. his career numbers really don't measure up, and really all he has going for him is his peak. And his RBI total which is propped up from hitting in good lineups and a friendly ballpark pretty much his whole career. Lynn, Fisk, Yaz, Cooper/Scott, Boggs, and Evans were his teammates during his career and certainly helped give him RBI opportunities. Especially Boggs. And as good as that peak was, he only won one MVP. He finished ahead of Lynn twice in MVP races and Lynn finished ahead of him twice in MVP races during the 70s, which pretty much sums them up.

 

He wouldn't be the worst Hall of Famer, but he'd clearly be a very marginal one. I don't think he'd be in at all if he had played in Montreal.

 

Robert

Great post

 

I was reading through the thread and was going to post my thoughts until i got to the above post by Robert which pretty much summed up what i was thinking, except probably in a more coherent fashion than i would have.

 

As for DrWood and his if you were old enough and/or felt Rice's "presence", i qualify in both instances and still agree with the post above by Robert. I not only grew up watching Rice, one of my best experiences as a kid with pro baseball involved Jim Rice which made me very fond of him. As a youngster i would go to games at County Stadium with my neighbor and we'd always arrive early for batting practice to try and get some baseballs. One day i was standing in that tunnel area and that outfield door was open. A ball was hit and i was coming forward for the ball and with my focus i didn't notice that i had gone on to the warning track as i caught it. A stadium working came running towards me and he wasn't happy and he was yelling something. I don't remember exactly what he said anymore, but it wasn't great job.

 

Anyways, i froze as this was happening and as i notice that i'm actually on the field. Low and behold, there is Jim Rice standing right by me and says great catch kid and pats me on the back. Then as the stadium worker gets right by me and yelling, Rice tells the worker to back off and leave the kid (me) alone. After unfreezing up at some point over what just actually happened and thanking Rice roughly 10 times in five seconds, he tells me to find a pen and he'd autograph the ball if i wanted. From that day on even though i hated Boston, i was a Rice fan forever, but i still think he's a shaky HOF candidate.

[Fatter than Joey]

If Yaz is in the hall, rice should be.

 

Yaz was a much more profound player.

 

From that day on even though i hated Boston, i was a Rice fan forever, but i still think he's a shaky HOF candidate.

 

I don't think Rice should get in.

[gregmag]

ok, beat me up some more.

 

rice was a guy that every pitcher feared. (OK, gossage said he "almost" feared him). There are guys that change the dynamics of the game in ways that don't show up in stats. His influence was palpable to anyone who watched games back then, or at least it should have been. If a guy's stats are borderline, such an impact should clearly put him over the threshold.

 

Not meaning to beat you up, but your argument is totally subjective. By definition, it can't persuade anyone, because it only exists inside your own head. Leaving aside your "don't show up in stats" thing, which I think is just a cop-out, you aren't even making any effort to think or argue objectively about Rice's qualifications on your own terms. What other hitters were feared game-changers? Certainly Dave Parker was, in his prime. Why is Rice a Hall of Famer and not Parker? Dale Murphy won two MVPs. Leaving aside stats per se, doesn't that suggest that Murphy was a more feared hitter than Rice, who only won one? Was Rice feared for his whole career, even after his stats had atrophied, or was he just feared for a few years? Should that make any difference? Do we have a lot of quotes from people who said Rice (and not others) scared them? How did that fear translate into wins for the Red Sox? What other hitters are in the Hall, or should be in the Hall, based on the fear factor?

 

I don't mean any of these questions in a sarcastic way. Although I'm inclined to dismiss subjective arguments that guys belong in the Hall because of "things that don't show up in the stats," I'm more than happy to be convinced otherwise. But you at least have to try, and I think addressing some of the questions above might help.

 

Also, your "should have been" line really bugs me. Saying that everybody should think like you think sounds incredibly arrogant. I was a baseball fan in the 70s, I had a working brain, and I thought Jim Rice was a terrific hitter, one of the best in baseball for a few years. I didn't see anybody wetting their pants when he came to the plate, and there were quite a few guys, some of whom aren't or shouldn't be in the Hall, who worried me (as a Brewers fan) every bit as much as Rice.

 

Greg.

[endaround]

Jim Rice reminds me a lot of Cooper. Good player with great peaks but just not quite there. Rice's OPS+ 128, Cooper 121 for their careers, partially explained by Rice's younger start and Cooper playing until 37.

[mothershipconnection]

the "dominating" thing seems to be the thing that you are missing. If you were in his presence, you would feel it.

 

 

 

What color was his aura?

[brewers4eric]

I seem to recall a particularly vicious beaning that Gossage put on Ron Cey. I wonder if they'll have "the Penguin" introduce "the Goose" during the induction ceremonies.

 

On a related note, if Tommy John is inducted into the Hall of Fame, it would seem fitting that Frank Jobe would be included on the same ballot. Jobe has had as much impact on the history of the game as the players.

[Phenomenal Smith]

During Rice's time in the majors, there were 45 players who drew more intentional walks than Rice.