Who would make a better CF? Hall or Hart

[jason21nl]

I'm spinning this thread off from the "brewers have had second worst off season" thread. In that thread there is a debate on who is a better CFer. Some say that Hall is way better than Hart, and that Hart has no shot at getting to some balls Hall can get to. I think that Hart would make a better CF because of his speed, and the fact that he has played outfield longer. He has had more experience. Just would like to get more opinions on this. Now I'm not saying that Hall is horrible, I just think Hart is better.

[logan82]

I would take Hall in CF defensivley. I just hope he improves and doesn't take out one of our corner outfielders by accident. I assume you are talking defensivley. I think Hart will put up better offensive numbers.

[ELCABALLO45]

Im going to take the cowards way out and say I want to see Hall in CF one more year.

[Ennder]

Hall for me as well, I think Hart will be a well above average corner OF but he doesn't seem to go straight back on balls very well which is a big part of CF.

[Gopher74]

Hall for me as well, I think Hart will be a well above average corner OF but he doesn't seem to go straight back on balls very well which is a big part of CF.

Yea, not to get back into that argument we had, I just disagree on this one.

I think Hart did an excellent job last year going back on balls, and don't see why he wouldn't continue to improve.

 

I don't know that I think there's a decided edge for one guy either way here, I just think more highly of Hart's CF ability than most do I guess. Bottom line, we're fine either way, but if we wanted to move Hall in either a trade, or to 3rd, I think Hart could become a well above average CF'er.

 

[strawbossisevil]

Hall. I don't buy that Hart would be a very good CF. He has the speed for the position, but he just isn't a very fluid OF.

 

There are a few posters, even very established posters, who seem to take for granted that he would make a solid CF. I suppose for a game or two, he wouldn't be terrible. But over a whole season, I think he'd do worse than Hall did last season. He just doesn't have the instincts to play CF.

 

But then again, I could be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

[Ennder]

Don't get me wrong, I think Hart would become an average or slightly above average CF, it isn't that he is flawed. I just think Hall can become an above average CF, he gets better jumps and moves vertically better than I've seen from Hart.

 

Having said that I don't think either of them have spent enough time in CF to really judge this, especially Hart who played there sporadically last season and spent most of his time in right.

[sbrylski]

I think in two seasons Hall can be one of the better defensive outfielders. Hart will be excellent in the corner, but probably a guy you'd be looking to replace defensively if he was your everyday CF.

[rluzinski]

I think Hart can play CF if needed. I think Hall is close to being above average there. What he needs to learn is risk management. If a SS misses a play, it's a single. If a CF does, it may be a triple.

[DougJones43]

In a vacuum, Hall. Unfortunately, there are other things to consider. As things stand now, moving Hall out of CF would allow Braun to be moved from 3B. Assuming the Brewers don't acquire a different 3B, I'll take Hart because in the grand scheme of overall team defense:

 

Hall at 3B, Hart in CF, Braun in LF > Braun at 3B, Hall in CF, Hart in RF

 

With Fielder and Weeks already playing bad defense in the infield, the Brewers just can't afford to have Braun at 3B any longer. Braun is that bad, that shifting other defensive players around to get him off the hot corner would be worthwhile.

[twobrewers]

I say Hart.

 

But I am willing to accept that I am probably wrong. All of the defensive stat whizzes tell me that Hall was actually pretty good in CF during the second half of the season.

 

All I can say is that I thought Hart made plenty of plays. And Hall missed plenty of plays. The games I saw between the two - Hart looked better. But I am likely remembering too many early Hall mistakes in CF.

 

(Hall always just seemed like he was too reckless in CF - always trying to make the great plays instead of just giving up a single)

[logan82]

Hall isn't moving out of the OF untill we trade him or he leaves as a free agent.

[Oldcity]

Logan=Doug?

 

I don't expect Hall to move, but if the Brewers can't acquire a third baseman I'll be really angry if they keep Braun at third over Hall.

[logan82]

Logan=Doug?

No, but Hall looks like he is in CF or a corner OF spot while he wears a Brewer uniform.

[Gopher74]

Logan=Doug?

No, but Hall looks like he is in CF or a corner OF spot while he wears a Brewer uniform.

Most likely, but I don't think we can definitively say that for certain.

 

I do honestly think that the Brewers are seriously considering a move, even if they're not saying so publicly. And I'm sure Hall would welcome a move back to the IF. Seems to me that he'd prefer an IF'er.

 

[igor67]

Mostly I want to see a lot of data. The limited data I have seen suggested that in his time their last year Hart was at least average and Hall was well below. The problems are that Hart's data were obviously a fairly small sample, and Hall's where for his entire season. If Hall improved as much as observation suggests then if some one had say Pre and post all-star defensive splits it should reflect that. And I certainly think it would be more than reasonable to use Hall's post all-star defense as his baseline. The problem is I haven't seen any kind of splits of that sort.

[davego]

What DougJones said...

[Ennder]

Mostly I want to see a lot of data. The limited data I have seen suggested that in his time their last year Hart was at least average and Hall was well below. The problems are that Hart's data were obviously a fairly small sample, and Hall's where for his entire season. If Hall improved as much as observation suggests then if some one had say Pre and post all-star defensive splits it should reflect that. And I certainly think it would be more than reasonable to use Hall's post all-star defense as his baseline. The problem is I haven't seen any kind of splits of that sort.

 

Well i can't go back and get the splits unfortunately but Hall was at -8 or so on the database I use at around the all star break, he ended up -2.7. He was strong on out of zone plays and weak on in zone plays (those early misplays are at fault here I'd guess).

 

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pfk_WuYpfduzefA8-s0_iYw&gid=6

[apirk]

Tony Gwynn Jr

[Tbadder]

I'd take Hall as well. But aprik makes a point Gwynn really is better than either. I'm one of the few non-Gwynn haters and wouldn't mind giving him a chance even though I know his chances of success are less then 50%.

 

I'm also for moving Hall back to 3rd (ifd a good 3b isn't obtained), but realize this might be organizational suicide because the psyche of the modern player is so fragile.

[RobDeer 45]

I believe that Hart could be an average CF but I don't think he will wow you too much. As one poster said, he's just not fluid. Hall flashes signs of a pretty darn good CF but between the occasional missread and gambling on balls he can turn some people off. I like him there but I also am a big fan of TGJ. I think it would be a good move to have Hall in LF and TGJ in CF if he were to be the guy to get the last starting spot. If Hall could adjust to LF (wouldn't be as drastic but still could cause some problems) you would have a pretty fast OF. I want Tony to get his chance but I understand his bat might not be what they want. I just love a speedy CF that can change the game with his speed at the plate and on the base paths.

 

On a side note, I really can't wait for spring training to start. I have the itch already!

[twobrewers]

I believe that Hart could be an average CF but I don't think he will wow you too much. As one poster said, he's just not fluid. Hall flashes signs of a pretty darn good CF but between the occasional missread and gambling on balls he can turn some people off.

That is well put.

 

My preference for Hart is that he isn't a gambler. He makes the plays he should. And lets singles fall when he should.

 

Hall makes a lot of great plays. And turns a lot of singles into triples.

[Oldcity]

I'd take Hall as well. But aprik makes a point Gwynn really is better than either. I'm one of the few non-Gwynn haters and wouldn't mind giving him a chance even though I know his chances of success are less then 50%.

Guess I don't understand this logic. You want to start Gwynn even though you know the odds are good that he will fail?

 

[Fatter than Joey]

Having said that I don't think either of them have spent enough time in CF to really judge this, especially Hart who played there sporadically last season and spent most of his time in right.

 

Yeah -- This is how I feel -- Personally I think Hart could be better, but I don't offer anything more than personal preferences with that statement.

 

But aprik makes a point Gwynn really is better than either.

 

I don't believe this to be true -- At best, TGJ does not have enough innings to draw solid conclusions from, however -- the data that does exist doesn't suggest that TGJ will be better than Hall/Hart defensively.

 

I just love a speedy CF that can change the game with his speed at the plate and on the base paths.

 

I don't think he possess this sort of speed -- sure he is quick, but he isn't "game changing" quick. I am not sure how speed helps you at the plate, and you have to get on base before you can be quick on the bases.

 

I am constantly amazed on how TGJ's inability to hit the ball out of the IF, has turned into a perception of stellar D, speed, contact hitting and OBP -- talk about making lemonade.

[ILuvDaBush]

I would think this is going to be Jr. Gwynny's defining season. Perhaps he'll have a Dave Roberts moment and all of Milwaukee will praise him. Actually, come to think of it...Jr. Gwynny immortalized himself to Papa Fans by getting "The Triple" off the unhittable Trevor Hoffman.