Ryan Braun: errors in left field?

[orca1963]

there is lots of talk of ryan braun being moved to lf due to his less than stellar fielding at third (worst in the nl i believe). what are the thoughts on him making the same amount of errors in lf? do you think an error at 3rd to be more costly than one in the of???

 

i also think as long he keeps his bat going it will compensate for the errors as while you don't want a total inept in the field i think fielding is a bit over rated.

[istanbultaye]

From what I understand the theories for ease of defensive postion go: #1 OF has a lot of popup/flyballs, which are easier to field than grounders (especially since the grounder requires a catch AND a throw to make an out, and the flyball only requires a catch. #2 Outfield gets less opportunities, so even if he makes errors at the same rate, it will have a lesser impact. I think #2 is the one people consider the stronger reason of the two, and there are other reasons as well, I'm sure.

[bullox]

" i think fielding is a bit over rated."

 

You are certainly welcome to your opinion but it's hard to argue with the fact that the Rockies were #1 in the NL in Fielding% while Boston was #2 in the AL by .001.

 

Welcome to the forums btw.

[orca1963]

"You are certainly welcome to your opinion but it's hard to argue with the fact that the Rockies were #1 in the NL in Fielding% while Boston was #2 in the AL by .001.

 

Welcome to the forums btw. "

 

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rockies obp .354 and red sox .362 9th and 2nd in mlb. 10th and 11th in runs scored. which puts them near the top for both hitting and fielding. obviously a combo of both is the ideal. if you had to make a choice though (as in the case with ryan) which would you rather have? ...and thanks for the welcome.

 

(pirates were near the top in fielding and right above the brewers in hitting).

[Fatter than Joey]

i also think as long he keeps his bat going it will compensate for the errors as while you don't want a total inept in the field i think fielding is a bit over rated.

 

You are probably right that is Braun keeps OPSing LHP (e.g.) at a ~1.400 clip it will compensate for his defensive liabilities, but his hitting is bound to regress some this coming year.

 

I would disagree that fielding is overrated. I would say fielding is hard to measure.

 

We are able to extract some data like PO/A/E -- but a lot of the data ends up becoming intertwined with pitching.

 

Certainly you do not need 8 gold glovers, just like you don't need 5 Cy Young winners in your rotation, or 30 HRs coming from the 8th spot -- but given their pitching staff, the Brewers need to improve their IF defense/

[Ennder]

Defense is almost certainly underrated. Moving Braun to LF just hides his bad defense. Range isn't as big of a deal in LF and inaccurate throws don't hurt you as much.

 

Braun cost the team around 30 runs at 3B last year but probably would have only cost us 10 runs or so in LF. If all we did was swap Braun with Pedro Feliz for his 950 innings last year we would have let in roughly 50-55 fewer runs taking us from 9th in Runs allowed per game in the NL to tied for 3rd in runs allowed and dropped the team ERA down to around 4.10.

 

Of course in that example we'd lose a lot of runs too but just showing how going from a terrible 3B to a good defensive one can completely change the outlook of a pitching staff. Also keep in mind that if Braun improves a lot next year he'll still probably be below average, he was historically bad. Weeks is one of the worst 2B in the NL and fielder is average at best. The infield defense is a real problem.

[RU Rah Rah]

Certainly you do not need 8 gold glovers, just like you don't need 5 Cy Young winners in your rotation, or 30 HRs coming from the 8th spot -- but given their pitching staff, the Brewers need to improve their IF defense/

Totally agree. Having 1 solid glove (Hardy) and 3 pretty bad ones (Weeks, Braun, Fielder) handling most of the fielding chances put the Brewers at a disadvantage (although, as mentioned previously, having Fielder and Braun crush the ball most of the season helped to compensate for their defensive woes).

The OF is easier for a bunch of reasons. Playing 3B is generally a two-part equation: you have to field and throw. LF basically makes minimal demands on throwing accuracy. Sure, Braun would have a smattering of assist chances, but nothing like the 4-5 he would get every day at 3B. Plus, the fielding itself would be pretty straightforward: mostly lazy fly balls, multi-hop grounders, etc. Even with his utter lack of experience out there, he should be able to figure it out.

[rluzinski]

LF is just plain easier than the infield. Common sense tells us that, as bad defenders are always moved to the corner outfield spots but they are never moved to 3B, SS or 2B. There are less chances in the outfield and the average play takes less skill.

 

Also, it's very easy to show how important defense is. Every defensive play that isn't made does 3 things:

 

* adds at least a single

* does not record an out

* gives the offense another batter

 

Add that up and you get every non-play equal to almost a run (.8 runs, IIRC). A defender makes just 6 less plays than the average guy over 100 chances and he's cost his team half a win.

 

His offense last year was still worth more than his defense cost but no one is arguing whether Braun should be starting or not. The question is, as it always is, where can a player be placed that maximizes his value to the team?

[Boy Jeenius]

I just can't agree with the defense is over rated statement. The numbers you guys put together are ok, but I can tell you from experience that it's so much more. Errors deflate the pitcher big time. Having to get 4 outs in an inning will also show up as the game progresses with regards to when a pitching change needs to be made. Bad D can ruin an entire pitching staff as the season progresses. It's a cloud that hangs over a team's head that can cost you a lot of games with just momentum changes. Baseball is such a mental game, a positive frame of mind is paramount to success. I've had pitchers completely freak when a player does not make a spectacular play, much less letting an easy play go for an error. It's a drain on the whole team that just wears you out over time.

[DrWood]

LF is just plain easier than the infield. Common sense tells us that, as bad defenders are always moved to the corner outfield spots

 

corner OF or just LF? RF seems to be a bit of a premium defensive position, at least for arms.

[logan82]

They are about the same. You put the guy who is a better fielder in RF, but RF is still a pretty low position as far as importance. I wouldn't put Braun there because I would prefer a more experienced fielder.

 

I think from easiest to hardest it goes, 1B-LF-RF-3B-CF-2B-SS-C. Guys will usually move to the left, but usually not to the right. If it was just about physical skills I think the Cubs would probably move Soriano either to CF or RF.

[wisconsin sports fan]

Pretty much right on with the order but I would go

 

 

C-SS-3b-CF-2b-RF-LF-1b

 

3rd base you get a lot of screamers which is why they call it the hot corner obviously. Sorry I didn't want to highjack the thread I know that wasn't the main point.

[logan82]

I didn't make it, but the reasoning behind it is that at 2B and SS you have to turn the DP. It is more of a skill position than 3B. The only real difference between 2B and SS is the length of the throw.

[sbrylski]

1. Logan has the right order, WSF. Second basemen move to 3B much more often than the other way around.

 

2. Bullox, that is an amazing avatar!

[logan82]

I think I have also seen CF and 3B switched which would make sense I guess. The infield is harder than the outfield.

[Baldkin]

To say Braun was the worst in the NL last year isn't really saying how bad he was.

 

He was the worst in the NL in the last hundred years.

 

Do I think he can improve? I don't know.... I still think the Brewers would've been better off moving Weeks to center and putting Hall at second.

[sbrylski]

I still think the Brewers would've been better off moving Weeks to center and putting Hall at second.

 

Are you implying this would have fixed something? We'd still have Braun at 3B and a hole in LF...or the other way around.

[Gopher74]

I still think the Brewers would've been better off moving Weeks to center and putting Hall at second.

 

Are you implying this would have fixed something? We'd still have Braun at 3B and a hole in LF...or the other way around.

I think he's simply saying that because last year at this time he'd have moved Weeks over Hall that he'd do the same in this situation with Braun.

 

 

 

[istanbultaye]

He's saying that for the defense last year, Hall is a better 2b than Weeks, and Weeks would have been no worse of a CF than Hall, thereby improving the defense for the team somewhat. That would have no impact on our 3b/Lf situation at the moment.

[JohnBriggs12]

Ryan Braun made errors in 22 different games last season.

 

The Brewers record in those games: 12-10.

 

Braun did not make a single error with Ben Sheets on the mound.

 

The relative importance of defense at 3B is directly related to the type of pitcher on the mound. It could be argued that Braun would have made fewer errors if Sheets had stayed healthy.

 

The impact of Braun's defensive deficiencies have been overstated by many.

[homer]

Errors don't tell the whole story though. What about balls that he should have gotten to but didn't? What about borderline calls that may or may not have been errors?

[Ennder]

Errors are less than half of what makes a good defensive player, Braun could have made 8 errors last year instead of 20+ and still been a bad third basemen. The Sheets argument is absurd, the sample size is too small to have any meaning. Yes if we had all FB pitchers the IF defense would mean less but then we'd give up more HR's so it wouldn't matter.

[mothershipconnection]

what are the thoughts on him making the same amount of errors in lf?

 

Simply no chance. Only a fat old DH could make that many errors in LF.

[Baldkin]

And Barry Bonds didn't make that many errors last year... (neither did Adam Dunn)

 

As for my previous statement: I thought Weeks should move, because he was a terrible 2B, and Hall was better there.

 

I think Braun should move because he is a terrible 3B and anyone would be better there.

 

Dillon at 3B. He gets my vote.

[Ennder]

The one thing about Braun is he looks like a third basemen. It isn't like this is Adam Dunn trying to play third. Braun's problems seem to be more from just not being comfortable than not being built for the position. So there is some reason to believe he could get better, which makes it a little bit harder to justify moving him for management.

 

I'd certainly like to see him moved but I can see why they might not end up doing it just yet.