Catalanotto now in play?

[Fatter than Joey]

I have not thought of him at all because I never and still have no reason to believe that he's available.

 

I think the Cubs almost got him for Murton

[Nader Raider Tim]

I have nothing to add to this thread. Nothing at all.

 

This thread just seems to be filled with condescending comment followed by snide remark, then rinse and repeat.

[twobrewers]

This thread just seems to be filled with condescending comment followed by snide remark, then rinse and repeat.

You would say that!

[sbrylski]

More I think about it, more I think Teahen fits the mold. BP has him at slightly above average defensively, and a .350-.360 OBP while batting on the left side along with a 3 years under arby, makes him a great candidate. I might even like him better than Rolen, a right handed, more expensive, injury questioned player who'll likely put up the same offensive numbers as Teahen.

[Oldcity]

With age, salary and injury history considered, Teahen would probably be the best realistic target possible for the Brewers. I just don't see KC nearly as willing to trade him as the Cards are with Rolen, which is why I think Rolen is more likely.

[Trowekamp]

I think it is hilarious those that rip on Braun (yes. that is you And That) but don't point out that Fielder was horrible at 1b this year or that Weeks made a huge defensive improvement in 1 year or that Hardy was dissapointing this year defensively.

Can Braun become a good defensive 3b? Yes.. will he? who knows? At this point of the off-season I would go forward this season as is and make teams come get our starters..

I have faith in Braun.. don't ever underestimate special players..

 

[Oldcity]

People don't ignore that Prince is bad at first. It's just that A) He's not nearly as bad at first as Braun is at third B) Third base is a much more important position defensively C)Prince could not play anywhere else while Braun can.

 

Also Weeks did not make huge strides defensively, he was still one of the five worst at his position among starters. And yeah Braun is a special player, so why would you take away most of his value by keeping him at third?

[Fatter than Joey]

C)Prince could not play anywhere else while Braun can.

 

Right -- Prince can only play 1b or DH -- having a "move Prince" discussion is pointless for a NL team. I guarantee you though if we were in the AL we'd be talking about DHing Prince.

 

Also Weeks did not make huge strides defensively, he was still one of the five worst at his position among starters.

 

Correct -- Plus any improvement that Weeks has attained has happened over the course of 3 seasons. I think if Braun played 3b for 3 years he would improve, but we'd lose a lot of runs in the meantime.

 

The one thing Steve doesn't mention, is that when Weeks started we were nowhere near .500 let alone looking at the playoffs. If we were a 70 win team going into 2008, I think the attitude here would be much different about Braun playing 3b.

 

Braun is breaking his teeth in a whole different (thankfully) environment than Weeks.

[MNBrew]

Also Weeks did not make huge strides defensively, he was still one of the five worst at his position among starters.

 

Yes, he did. He cut his errors down significantly. Other areas of his D clearly aren't great and that evidently diminishes some of that seemingly large improvement. But the error measure is not completely irrelevant, and therefore he did make huge strides. To Gold Glove status? Clearly not. But still big strides.

 

Also, for as often as I've brought it up, people seem not to want to consider the fact that Hall was at least as much if not an even greater defensive mess when he first came up. He was completely atrocious in the field AND was totally lost at the plate. My point? Players that are initially horrible can still improve very significantly.

 

And, to get back to the original point of the thread, I'd gladly trade Vargas for Catalanotto and not think twice about any defensive considerations. It's a financial wash and a bat with decent attributes added to the roster who's also fairly versatile (though I'm not claiming adept) in the field.

[brettac1]

I think anyone who is contending that the Brewers need to be in "win now" mode should be in favor of moving Braun.

 

Braun is breaking his teeth

 

This sounds like it would be painful.

[bando1234]

Ive see some Vargas for Catalanotto trades. What would you think of Cappy for Catalantto & Laird?

[bsglorydays]

Cappy for Cat. & Laird would be tremendous for the Brewers, but Texas wouldn't do Cappy for just Laird alone, IMO. Laird has good value - he is a solid catcher and there is obviously a huge shortage of catchers in baseball.

[yoshii8]

I don't think that Catalanatto makes sense, we already have so many average OF's, if he was also good defensively then maybe. But I wouldn't mind Cappy for Laird and a prospect.

[Fatter than Joey]

Yes, he did. He cut his errors down significantly.

 

He still is a below average 2b.

 

Players that are initially horrible can still improve very significantly.

 

Significantly is sort of a subjective term, Braun could make improvements, and still be inadequate.

 

No one has been as horrible as Braun. -- however even if we accept the premise that Braun can improve to be an average 3b, it certainly is not going to happen in 2008.

[sheetswannabe]

I dont get this, how can we depend on Braun to be a good LF? If he cant accurately throw from 3rd to 1st, whos saying he can throw from left to cutoff, or left to home plate? Just wondering.

[molitor fan]

Players that are initially horrible can still improve very significantly.

 

Significantly is sort of a subjective term, Braun could make improvements, and still be inadequate.

 

No one has been as horrible as Braun. -- however even if we accept the premise that Braun can improve to be an average 3b, it certainly is not going to happen in 2008

 

FTJ and And That lead this little march saying that Braun is an incapable defender, and does not have the tools to ever be capable. I think they are full of beans....There I said it - you sirs, are full of beans.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I dont get this, how can we depend on Braun to be a good LF? If he cant accurately throw from 3rd to 1st, whos saying he can throw from left to cutoff, or left to home plate? Just wondering.

A left fielder is probably not required to make 1/5th the number of significant throws as a 3rd baseman. Every throw by the 3rd sacker needs to be accurate, whereas, say a throw to a cutoff man, has some margin for error. The cutoff man is not standing on a base that he needs to be on in order to record a force.

 

The other thing that people are ignoring is that Braun was (I'll say it once again) historically bad. The last time a 3rd baseman had metrics as bad as Braun, the thumb on the glove they use wasn't connected to the fingers. 90 years.

 

Is it possible for Braun to improve? Sure, many have done so. But the point is that even if his defense improved 100%, he'd STILL be the worst fielding 3rd baseman in the league. Counting on, or even guessing that he'll improve enough to not be awful is a gamble a playoff contending team should not take.

 

EDIT, to add that I see no need for Catalanatto. Gross might not have the track record, but he's 1/10th the price, and I'm reasonably sure he can put up the same OPS as Cat in 300 at bats.

[molitor fan]

But the point is that even if his defense improved 100%, he'd STILL be the worst fielding 3rd baseman in the league.

 

Not sure if this comment is worthy of me saying something that will get myself a strike or even banned. But wow, just wow. I guess I will leave it at that.

[DuWayne Steurer]

But the point is that even if his defense improved 100%, he'd STILL be the worst fielding 3rd baseman in the league.

 

Not sure if this comment is worthy of me saying something that will get myself a strike or even banned. But wow, just wow. I guess I will leave it at that.

If what you're going to do is just HINT that my comment is stupid, then just say it, because it's just the same.

 

[DuWayne Steurer]

But the point is that even if his defense improved 100%, he'd STILL be the worst fielding 3rd baseman in the league.

 

Not sure if this comment is worthy of me saying something that will get myself a strike or even banned. But wow, just wow. I guess I will leave it at that.

If what you're going to do is just HINT that my comment is stupid, then just say it, because it's just the same.

 

And for what it's worth, he had more than double the amount of negative fielding runs than any other 3b in the NL, hence my statement that a 100% improvement would still leave him the worst fielding 3rd baseman in the league.

 

[clancyphile]

IIRC, Catalanotto played third early in his career with the Blue Jays.

 

He could be an option there.

[TooLiveBrew]

But the point is that even if his defense improved 100%, he'd STILL be the worst fielding 3rd baseman in the league.

 

Not sure if this comment is worthy of me saying something that will get myself a strike or even banned. But wow, just wow. I guess I will leave it at that.

 

I wasn't involved in this exchange, obviously, but I don't see why you were offended so much. RoCo is merely presenting a fact. I don't know for sure, but I certainly didn't see any malice in it.

[TooLiveBrew]

Players that are initially horrible can still improve very significantly.

 

Significantly is sort of a subjective term, Braun could make improvements, and still be inadequate.

 

No one has been as horrible as Braun. -- however even if we accept the premise that Braun can improve to be an average 3b, it certainly is not going to happen in 2008

 

FTJ and And That lead this little march saying that Braun is an incapable defender, and does not have the tools to ever be capable. I think they are full of beans....There I said it - you sirs, are full of beans.

No, they don't lead this march, they've just been overwhelmed, as have many, by the countless scouts and experts who've said from the day we drafted him that he isn't cut out to be an INF at the major-league level. If we want his bat to carry value, he needs to be in LF so he doesn't cancel out the majority of his production - making someone like Pedro Feliz a comparable or even superior option at 3B. I don't want to pile on, but it's really unfair to claim that two posters here are simply spreading propaganda - when in fact it is truth.

[dadofandrew]

I'm with MolitorFan, and one look at the 3B fielding stats will show you that several 3B are not much better than Braun, though it's tough to argue he was the worst. I think there are 3-5 that are only a bit better...and those guys are probably about 10-20 runs below average.

 

The reason I like Ryan at 3B is the same reason I like Joe Mauer at C...they could be historically good there. Mauer though is very good defensively, but it's tough for him to stay healthy. Braun could easily work his way to the next level (which would be like Cabrera or Encarnacion), and could then move up to being average or maybe just a bit below. Of course, that will take years overall.

 

As I've said, I find it funny that those who put down a very good defensive option, like Pedro Feliz or Tony Gwynn Jr, constantly belittle their defensive worth, yet have no problem exaggerating Ryan's shortcomings. Feliz is the best defensive 3B in the game and is worth about +20 runs, while Gwynn might well be worth +10/15 over Hall, who I would expect to be even to 10 runs to the good in 2008. Yet, we hear Feliz would cost the team 50 runs at the plate and still be horrible, even though no numbers point to that.

 

Basically, it's easy to pick a number out of the sky and use it as fact (as was done the other day when Kyle Lohse was called a minor league pitcher, even though he's very close to average), and when suggestions here were to non-tender Vargas and Capuano (who likely would have got $7-9M a year in this market).

 

I admit, with some of the freedoms taken here, it's getting pretty difficult to sift through the quality, well thought out stuff, versus the barrage of one-liners that are thought to be witty, yet add nothing to the discussion, and are baseless in fact.

[endaround]

I really have no clue what defensive stats show Braun anywhere near any other player. Everything has him about 30-40 runs below average playing a partial season. The next guys might be in the 20s in some systems.

 

And I really do see what you can't understand that having an average player with the bat and the glove is better than having one with extremes either way Its about minimizing risk and giving you flexibility with the roster.