reason for a little concern or no? brewers bench

[jason21nl]

Ok, I have been reading in a bunch of threads how Dillon, Rottino, Rivera, have all pretty much been given spots on the Brewers bench this year. I want to know what happened from these guys being AAA players all their career to just given a bench spot on a team that is trying to contend for a pennant. Just in the Cirillo thread, I have read that he is blocked by Dillon and Rottino. Not sure how Dillon went from a career minor leaguer to big time bench player in one year and being able to knock a MLB vet from being able to make the team. Dillon had a good year last year, but I'm not ready to just give him a bench spot. Same with Rottino. He gets much love on the board and I'm not really sure why. Because he is from WI and people want him to make it? I'm sorry, but right now I think we have a great starting roster, but our bench is very weak. Everytime I post something in the major league forum, people usually disagree. So please, make me change my mind about our bench full of AAA players.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Well, I think in the case of Cirillo, people are remembering how down the stretch when he last played for the crew, he was unable to play consecutive days, and even told Yost that he was really only able to play about 3 days a week. If someone gets hurt, you're going to need to know that you have a guy who can step right in and play everday for a week or 2, even if he's not going to give you the same production as your starter.

 

I really don't think it's going to be Dillon AND Rottino, but Dillon OR Rottino. Gabe Gross, Craig Counsell, Tony Gwynn, and a catcher. I'm not certain that guy will be Mike Rivera.

[jason21nl]

I don't want to reply so soon to this thread. That bench that you just mentioned, does anyone other than gross really comfort you?

[Tbadder]

I like Dillon and I like Rivera. I'd be the kind of manager that would carry three catchers if possible. I'm not comfortable with Rottino as I think he's a very bad player.

[hauser42]

Dillion is a looks to be a guy that could hit well in a backup role and can play many spots. For this reason he would be a cheaper version of Rillo for the team.

Rivera would be a solid backup catcher he is a decent defensive catcher with some pop in his bat.

Rottino gets love because he is a local and for some reason people feel he can be a use full player on the bench. Few times I have seen him, he has only shown a frying pan for a glove so I dont get that he can play many spots.

[Brian the Automator]

It's not unusual that bench situations don't resolve themselves until later in the offseason. Many free agents hold out hope that they'll land a starting gig somewhere, and then resign themselves to take a contract where there's a good chance they'll be a reserve when they have to.

 

I don't think the club's bench will stay as it is now.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I don't want to reply so soon to this thread. That bench that you just mentioned, does anyone other than gross really comfort you?

Craig Counsell, if he's not getting 300 at bats. He does usually carry at least a decent OBP, even if he doesn't hit for average or power. He also plays solid defense wherever he's at. I don't think Dillon is going to come out and hit like he did last year, but I also don't think it's out of line to think he could put up a .750-.800-ish OPS, and he's versatile as far as where you can play him. Obviously I don't care for either Rivera or Munson, but most teams struggle to find one good catcher, let alone 2.

 

[Thurston Fluff]

Counsell and Gross are probably the two top bench players. Both have shown they can do that job alright if given the proper amount of playing time. After that you're talking about players who will only get playing time if they actually show they deserve it.

[Paul77]

I've been worried about the bench all off season. I'd like to see at least one upgrade there. I was realllllly hoping Mark Loretta would find his way back to Milwaukee this off season. As much as I'd love to see Cirillo back, I'm not sure he's a big upgrade over the cheaper Dillon (in terms of what his final line will be). If it comes down to $300k for Dillion or $750K for Cirillo, I'd still take Cirillo even if their productivity ends up being similar just "because". If this really is the year we finally make our move into the post season I'd love JC to be apart of it.

 

I'm afraid Doug & Co. are focused on the bullpen and the 3b/LF hole (rightfully so) and overlooking the bench. I haven't heard a single peep from the Brewers about upgrading the bench this off season. As things stand right now it looks like our achilles heel. I'm not even sure who is out there for us to be looking at.

 

Counsell and Gross are probably the two top bench players. Both have shown they can do that job alright if given the proper amount of playing time. After that you're talking about players who will only get playing time if they actually show they deserve it.

The problem is after those two were left with precious little choice when we need pinch hitters, when someones gets hurt, when we play extra innings... regardless if they deserve it or not there will be times when we have to run guys out there in situations that will make Brewers Nation cringe.

[SoCalBrewfan]

It seems very likely that they'll carry Munson as a LH complement to Kendall...that's not exciting but neither is it a disaster. Gross seems like a lock as 4th OF / lefty bat off the bench. Counsell brings flexibility, good defense, a bit of OBP, and the situational stuff Ned loves so much. Those guys are typical bench quality players, relative to their positions. LH bats are helpful given the preponderance of starters who bat RH, though I don't know that they'll do a lot of pinch-hitting for position players other than maybe Kendall.

 

It's difficult to project the rest of the bench until they resolve the LF/3B situation, though...Gwynn is a possibility as a speed / defense 5th OF, but he could also be in AAA or be part of a trade package for a 3B, for example. An OF of Braun, Hall, Hart might be complemented nicely by Gwynn and Gross, both LHB who are good defenders. In that case, Dillon might have earned a job for the last spot, and that possibility is increased if they get a LH hitting 3B like Blalock...Dillon can play against some or all LHP, and he's very possibly the only RHB on the bench. Rottino and Dillon are similar, so I doubt they keep both.

 

If Braun sticks in the infield and they bring in an OF, on the other hand, they probably have another infielder who can play a good defensive 3b, with a LH bat preferred...that would seem to leave out Rottino in particular.

 

If they move Hall back to the infield and Braun to left, there's another string of needs that are slightly different.

[Thurston Fluff]

The problem is after those two were left with precious little choice when we need pinch hitters, when someones gets hurt, when we play extra innings... regardless if they deserve it or not there will be times when we have to run guys out there in situations that will make Brewers Nation cringe.

 

True but that doesn't necessarily mean a weak bench. I think the bench forms a little like the bullpen. You have a few established guys and sign a few guys to minore league contract with an invite to spring trianing and see who sticks. We pretty mcuh know what we get out of Counsell and Gross. We know Gwynn will be adequate and might even progress further. We know Dillon has a chance of being adequate though he could fail. What we don't know is who might become the next Scotty Po. vs the next Alex Sanchez. The only way to cover that uncertainty is to find an adequate amount of players to vie for that role.

[Invader3K]

The bench doesn't really bother me. Frankly, I think the Brewers will end up with a better bench than quite a bit of the NL this coming year. I think the key is just that Yost doesn't go platoon happy, or have Counsell getting 400 ABs.

[aracko]

I gotta believe that Counsell is better than 07 showed.

 

Career lows in every single category. I would expect him to bounce back and become a servicable bench player again. Last year was a glitch in my opinion. I dont think he will hit .300 but .265 is reasonable to expect along with 10 SBs.

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

I think this question essentially boils down to which of the following two camps you belong to:

1) Minor league stats don't mean anything, or at least mean very little. AAA is filled with guys that can put up huge numbers in the minors but fail in the big show, that's why scouts have the "4A" tag. It's a big risk to stock your bench with unproven guys, because they might fail completely. At least with vets you know what you're going to get.

2) Minor league stats are as useful, or nearly as useful, as major league stats for projecting future major league performance, provided you're careful to adjust for things like park factor, league factor, etc. There's no such thing as a "4A" player, there are just guys who rot away needlessly in the minors as a consequence of major league GMs having a fetishistic fixation with Proven Veterans . Smart teams should want to pay the league minimum for bench production from guys other teams think are "4A".

In reality, there's probably a continuum of viewpoints from (1) to (2). I'm much closer to (2), so I look at Joe Dillon as a fairly proven commodity. He's put up big numbers in AAA for several years now, CHONE projects him at 280/356/492 for '08 (that's better than Geoff Jenkins' CAREER line). Matter of fact, I'm starting to wonder whether he shouldn't be given an opportunity to be the starting 3B, if the asking price is too high on Rolen/Blalock/Chavez/Beltre. I want us to be the sort of team that recognizes the value that the Joe Dillons (AKA "Ken Phelps All Stars") of the baseball world provide.

Rottino and Rivera have much more modest projections, but I think only one of them will make the team. I'm hoping it's Rottino, because his 257/319/378 projection isn't embarrassing for a guy that can fill in at so many different positions.

[Ennder]

Soto has 1 good year in the minors and he's an all star C, Dillon has multiple good years and he's a huge question mark.

 

No, I'm not all that worried about the bench. I'm worried about the backup C more than a little but the bench should be fine, especially if we pick up a LF or 3B.

[JohnBriggs12]

I gotta believe that Counsell is better than 07 showed.

 

Career lows in every single category. I would expect him to bounce back and become a servicable bench player again. Last year was a glitch in my opinion. I dont think he will hit .300 but .265 is reasonable to expect along with 10 SBs.

 

I disagree. He'll be 38 years old in August. He hasn't hit .265 since 2002. If you look at his 06 splits, he hit .152 after August 1st of that season. Counsell got every ounce out of his ability but even that ability has been fading. The best we should expect would be to slightly rebound and hit .235 to .240 but even that's a stretch. His approach is to pull everything. He lacks the tools to have success doing that at his age.

 

As for the bench as a whole, it was bound to be less experienced (re: cheaper) as the everyday players and pitchers start to earn more. This year they had to spend on the bullpen. Last year they spent as much as any team in the league on the bench. They can't afford to keep that up.

[brewers4eric]

If the everyday lineup stays healthy, I'm not all that concerned about the bench. It becomes a major issue to me if someone like Counsell gets more than a spot start. One of my benchmarks for success for the 2008 Brewers is whether Counsell makes more than 150 plate appearances. Besides the fact that I can't stand his swing, more than an occasional time at the plate means that JJ, Rickie, or Braun are injured. His offensive stats are superior only to Gus Polidor.

 

The bench is more of a reflection of the entire 40 man roster. There will be so many roster moves over the course of 162 games that the names will all start to sound the same. It will be up to Yost to identify the roles for the bench players, and who will best fit the team's perceived needs. For example, do you want someone like Mel Stocker at the end of the bench when you need to steal a base, or someone like Bob Hamelin for those situations where the game isn't over until the fat man swings.

[twobrewers]

I look at Joe Dillon as a fairly proven commodity. He's put up big numbers in AAA for several years now, CHONE projects him at 280/356/492 for '08 (that's better than Geoff Jenkins' CAREER line). Matter of fact, I'm starting to wonder whether he shouldn't be given an opportunity to be the starting 3B

Add another convert to the Dark Side!

 

If our options are...

Gross/Dillon in LF & Braun at 3B

or

Dillon at 3B & Braun in LF

 

Sign me up for the second choice. Plus, we would need a nice steady back-up for Dillon. *Cirillo*

[DuWayne Steurer]

Honestly, as I think about this, I think people really underestimate our bench. I think people expect their team to carry "starter quality" guys to have on the bench "just in case", and it really doesn't work that way.

 

Look for example at the Red Sox. Now I understand their rotation and starting lineup is high quality, but if you look at their bench, the three guys that had the most at bats besides their starting nine.....

 

Alex Cora -- .684 OPS

Eric Hinske -- .715 OPS

Wily Mo Pena -- 676 OPS

and the backup catch

Doug Mirabelli -- .638 OPS

 

Now, one might argue in the NL, you need better bench guys, as you'll use them more, so I'll take an NL playoff team, the Phillies

 

Abraham Nunez -- .600 OPS

Wes Helms -- .665 OPS

Jayson Werth -- .863 OPS (that's nice from a bench guy, yup)

Chris Coste -- .730 OPS

 

In Colorado, they didn't have but one bench player (Ryan Spillborghs) have an OPS over .730, and most were well under .700.

 

The Cubs bench, aside from Daryle Ward, was more or less awful.

 

Arizona had 2 decent bench performers, Tony Clark and Chad Tracy, but nobody else from the bench approached a .720 OPS.

 

I realize that OPS isn't the be all end all, as I think OBP is probably a bit more important for a pinch hitter, but I'm going for quick and dirty.

 

I'm not saying that the Brewers shouldn't be looking to upgrade a few of these guys, I just think that a lot of people think playoff caliber teams have benches full of guys like Bill Hall and Matt Stairs, who would be expected to put up .800+ OPS.

 

I really don't think a bench of Munson, Gross, Dillon, Gwynn, and Counsell is nearly as bad as people think it will be.

[zzzmanwitz]

isn't nice that we can complain about the bench? Nice to know that's one of our main concerns. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

I agree with RoCo, our bench is actually pretty good compared to most teams.

[TooLiveBrew]

Yes. As of today, if our bench can be: Counsell, Dillon, Gross, Rottino, Munson/Rivera... we'd have one of the best in the NL.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Yes. As of today, if our bench can be: Counsell, Dillon, Gross, Rottino, Munson/Rivera... we'd have one of the best in the NL.

 

I'd rather have Gwynn than Rottino. Rottino's role is filled by Gross and Dillon, and Gwynn brings an aspect (speed) that none of the other guys on there have, aside from maybe Counsell. Granted, Rottino is the "emergency catcher", but that's more of a luxury, not a necessity.

 

[dadofandrew]

The only thing really missing from the bench listed in RoCo's post is a guy making $5M who used to be good. The bench above is balanced, decent OBP, some pop, and you could easily imagine the guys starting or platooning elsewhere. That's a near perfect bench. In fact, only Counsell's salary keeps it from being perfect.

[DuWayne Steurer]

The only thing really missing from the bench listed in RoCo's post is a guy making $5M who used to be good. The bench above is balanced, decent OBP, some pop, and you could easily imagine the guys starting or platooning elsewhere. That's a near perfect bench. In fact, only Counsell's salary keeps it from being perfect.

 

The guy that "used to be good" would be Matt Stairs. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif I know most make fun of him for being fat and old, but I'd love to have him and his .850-ish OPS batting 300 times vs. righties on our bench.

 

[monty57]

Judging by the bonus levels in his contract, Kendall expects to play 130+ games. Plus he won't need to be pinch-run for like Estrada, so hopefully the backup catcher will only see 150 or so ABs.

 

If Braun is indeed moved to LF, we have three starters who will play virtually everyday, so the backups shouldn't get too many ABs other than in defensive replacement roles.

 

Prince plays nearly everyday.

 

That leaves Weeks and Hardy as the two positions needing to be covered the most and right now Counsell is the guy to do it. As has been said, he's fine to give a guy a day off and to pinch hit, but if Rickie or JJ go down for an extended period (which they have done in the past), I'd like to have another backup. Is Dillon a 2B or is he simply a 3B/OF? If he plays a decent 2B, than I'm more comfortable with the situation.

 

Also, I'd like to see another right-handed bat, preferably one with some power who could play 1B on days Prince needs a break. That way, we'd have Gross and Counsell from the left side and Dillon / new guy from the right side to go along with the backup catcher whom Yost will not use as a pinch hitter. Of course, in that situation Gross would be the defensive replacement for Braun, which is the biggest reason I think Gwynn could end up on the roster. Gross plays average defense, Dillon probably below average LF defense, so I'd guess they'll opt for a solid defender over my wish for a RH bat.