Cirillo: "I'd like to be a Brewer again"

[NYChez]

I can think of 30 million reasons why Cirillo didn't spend his entire career in Milwaukee.

 

Interesting stat:

In his 8 seasons in Milwaukee, Cirillo made a combined 6.3 million dollars. (2 million less than Jeffrey Hammonds made in 2003)

In his 6 seasons outside Milwaukee, Cirillo made a combined 30 million dollars.

 

I'd say 7 of his 8 seasons in Milwaukee he's been very good. Only 1 year outside Milwaukee has he been good at all.

 

Cirillo may be the best value player the Brewers have ever had.

[Ennder]

How anyone could even put Counsell & Cirillo in the same league offensively is absurd.

 

Well vs righties they are about the same guy and Counsell is a way better fielder than Cirillo and can play SS and 2B as well. As long as you hide Counsell against lefties he's actually a league average player still when you factor in defense.

[Brian the Automator]

The problem I'd have with Cirillo is that he seems to have a hard time staying healthy these days. You would have to factor in a DL-stint here or there. I don't think he really has the chops anymore to play SS (at least not to start there), and his defense has deteriorated somewhat over the past year, it seems.

 

I really do think there is some "magic" there with Cirillo only playing well in a Brewers uniform. He has a mental glitch, that way, it looks like. If he'd be willing to accept a minor league deal with a S/T invite, that would be great.

[twobrewers]

You would have to factor in a DL-stint here or there.

How about we sign him - and then just stash him on our DL with "oldness".

 

That way, if Counsell or Dillon gets hurt, we can activate Cirillo as a replacement!

[MNBrew]

Based on '07 stats, an injury-plagued off-year for Cirillo....

 

Hitter-favoring batting matchup:

Cirillo against LHP (.271) vs. Counsell against RHP (.234): 37 BA points in favor of Cirillo

 

Pitcher-favoring batting matchup:

Cirillo against RHP (.238) vs. Counsell against LHP (.157): 71 BA points in favor of Cirillo

 

vs. RHP (as noted in post #47)

+4 BA points in favor of Cirillo

 

vs. LHP (ditto)

+114 BA points in favor of Cirillo

 

While Cirillo has regressed against RHP from earlier in his career, Counsell is just an easy out almost no matter what and hardly an offensive threat in any way.

 

I'll accept that Counsell is a better fielder than Cirillo -- that's hardly disputable. I disagree, however, that he is a way better fielder. I'd say Cirillo is, at worst, league-average, but also has smarts beyond his talent that still make him a plus-defender.

 

Brian, I'm pretty sure you're right on Cirillo's mental "glitch." The guy's always had those throughout his career in one form or another. The cool thing is that this is one that results in improved production given that it's a Brewers uni he's wearing.

[TooLiveBrew]

Continue to ignore the difference in OBP, and you can continue to assert that Counsell/Cirillo is a wash v. RHP. Estrada hit better than Hardy in 2007 by that logic.

[MNBrew]

Okay TLB, OBP the last 3 years:

 

Cirillo:

2005 - .373

2006 - .369

2007 - .316

 

Counsell:

2005 - .350

2006 - .327

2007 - .323

 

With the rather negligible difference for 2007, it's evident that Counsell walks a bit more but Cirillo hits enough better -- as he has for basically his whole career - to still get on base at a higher rate than Counsell.

 

Not being a "deep stats" monger like many on this site, I don't know where to find the OBP vs. righty/lefty splits. What I'd want to know, as it shakes out, is just how much better is Counsell's OBP vs. RHP than Cirillo's -- AND if you translated/pro-rated that into equal plate appearances per player, then...

 

- just how many more walks would Counsell have had vs. RHP than Cirillo?

- and how much of that would've been the by-product of Counsell hitting 8th, right in front of the pitcher?

 

In other words, how much of that is a result of hitting in front of the pitcher, and just how many more total walks would Counsell have had than Cirillo?

 

My hunch is that Counsell's greater OBP against RHP boils down to a fairly smallish number of walks, proportionally speaking, which would then hardly be a sound basis for the all-encompassing statement that Counsell is a better hitter -- or better hitter vs. RHP -- than Cirillo.

 

Stats don't necessarily lie, but they often can need extrapolating to analyze just how much difference a particular stat does make. The number itself, just at face value, often paints a very incomplete picture.

[Invader3K]

I like Jeff Cirillo, but I'm just not seeing a big need for him at this point. That said, I wish the Brewers had just kept him and avoided the Counsellnino mess.

[TooLiveBrew]

As much as I hate to admit it, I use espn.com for MLB splits (esp. the 3-yr. #s). I chuckled to myself when I read that you posted that you couldn't find the split OBPs, since I was going to call you out for cherry-picking.

 

http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

Counsell 2007 v. RHP: .234/.337/.316/.653

Cirillo 200 v. RHP: .236/.314/.333/.647

 

Since OBP is more valuable (1.8 times the value?) than SLG in OPS, you can see what I was getting at. Not only was Counsell's OPS better, but it was better because of his OBP - the more valuable component. Being around a .340 OBP is near league-average, where being around a .315 OBP is Estrada territory.

 

For their 3-yr. splits, Counsell's BB rate v. RHP is better, but Cirillo's is fine. Counsell - 115 BB / 976 ABs; Cirillo - 43 BBs / 441 ABs.

 

Cirillo's 3-yr. #s v. LHP - .360/.415/.510/.925 (200 ABs)

Counsell 3-yr. v. LHP - .242/.337/.324/.661 (256 ABs)

 

Basically, your notion

 

it's evident that Counsell walks a bit more but Cirillo hits enough better

is true, but it fails to incorporate the defensive edge Counsell provides, too. And to assume Craig saw more BBs from batting 8th is forgetting how many lineups saw Ned slot Counsell #2. That'd be 72 ABs at #2, to 135 at #8 - and his BB rate (in 2007) was better as the #2 guy.

 

Is Counsell the better hitter v. RHP? Probably not. But he's the better OBP guy, and that's all I said about him. Plus, there's the defensive consideration Ennder mentioned.

[jason21nl]

this is coming from my heart....I would rather see Cirillo make an out over Counsell. I would rather see Cirillo on the field over Counsell even if it makes the Crew a little worse. I would rather see Cirillo in a Brewers uniform rather than seeing Counsell, Dillon, Rottino and any other scrub player in one.

[sbrylski]

Do we really hate Craig Counsell? I at least figured we'd be indifferent about him.

[MNBrew]

Do we really hate Craig Counsell? I at least figured we'd be indifferent about him.

I like his defense, and I stick my neck out to suggest that he brings something of value in the way of positive veteran leadership.

 

I just can't stand the fact that he can't hit a lick. He can walk some, which helps some but in my estimation hardly enough to matter. He was pretty much an automatic out the 2nd half of last year, and the team had too many guys like that (Mench in some ways, Jenkins, Miller, Estrada, etc. -- frustratingly enough, a group made up mostly of veterans). He's the one left from that group we're stuck with, and that is compounded by Melvin's calling Graffanino's agent's bluff last winter by signing Counsell sent Cirillo out of town was doubly frustrating for its shortsightedness and the fact that Cirillo's production was replaced by Counsell's banjo hitting and Graffanino's total offensive malaise.

 

So to answer your question, emotional attachments to Cirillo as a side consideration, it becomes easier to dislike Counsell when his committed presence on the roster in part helps keep Cirillo from returning.

[qrk10000.u]

While I was certainly a fan of Joe Dillon last year, I still am not 100% convinced of what he can do. He had all of 76 at bats with us in 2007 after many years toiling in the minors. I would be much more comfortable having he and Cirillo battle it out for a roster spot in spring training and if both do very well, finding a way to have both on the bench in 2008. Dillon definitely has an edge in terms of age and versatility, but Cirillo is a real Brewer legend and I'd love to see him finish up his career in Milwaukee. I think a lot of paying fans would, too.

[Ennder]

I'm pretty indiferrent about counsell. I don't like seeing him play 3B just because his anemic offense is even more anemic out of that slot. I also don't like to see him bat against lefties at all, i can live with his stats vs righties given the glove.

[Fatter than Joey]

I'd rather have Counsell than Cirillo so my vote is no.

 

Yeah -- me too.

 

Do we really hate Craig Counsell? I at least figured we'd be indifferent about him.

 

His batting stance draws my ire

[RockCoCougars]

Hate is a strong word, but...... I'd take Cirillo any day ahead of Counsell and twice on Sunday. Does anyone have any confidence at all in Counsell at the plate? Big time rally killer. I can only remember two clutch hits for Counsell last year, and it seems like everytime he was up there were guys on base. I don't want to hear about his defense either. Like I said in an earlier post if defense is that important, Rey Ordonez is available and would probably play for the minimum (not that I want him). It sickens me to think that the team probably could have signed BOTH Cirillo and Loretta this offseason for close to what Counsell is going to make. If leadership is what they want, why don't they go out and get Royce Clayton again (who I've heard a lot more positives about in that aspect than Counsell)? Counsell brings nothing to the table whatsoever and is a complete waste of cash.

[MNBrew]

Thank you, RCC. For everyone lauding Counsell's offense, basically other than the periodic hit, the best we can hope for in a rally situation is for him to get walked now and then. Thanks, Craig. That's not clutch, it's crap. Counsell was about the closest thing we had to a sure out, esp. in the 2nd half.

 

Yost himself talked about players eventually needing to produce or they'd lose their PT. Counsell was hardly a defensive savior. He came in and just made the plays. Nothing flashy, just solid. But the guy was a total downright bad hitter who can't hit the side of a barn -- from inside the barn! His plus-defense doesn't come close to offsetting the black hole he was at the plate.

 

Face it. Craig Counsell is only good at one thing -- defense -- which makes him as complete a ballplayer and as useful as a current-day Herb Washington.

 

He's a fine human being and a nice story as hometown-boy-makes-good-and-plays-for-hometown-team. But he can't buy a hit and is a waste of cash & roster space. Jeff Cirillo is a very respectable defender, albeit not an everyday one, and a far better all-around ballplayer.

[Oldcity]

Cirillo can't play short, and he really can't play second well at all either. Sure he's a better hitter against lefties, but Counsell probably fits better with the Brewers (he's just about the only one on the team with good D).

[rluzinski]

This isn't even a Counsell vs. Cirillo debate. Cirillo isn't a middle infielder; Counsell is.

[logan82]

A bench of Counsell, Cirillo, Gross, and Dillon would look pretty good.

[Zycho32]

If nothing else Logan, that bench would redefine 'Veteran Discipline'- probably something our young core needs to look at.

 

If Cirillo could even play LF at a passable level, could a Gross/Cirillo platoon outperform a Gross/Dillon platoon?

[Invader3K]

I think this quiet part of the off-season is making people desperate to see the Brewers do something. Yes, Cirillo would be "nice" to have in Milwaukee again, but I don't think the Brewers have a real need for him.

[clancyphile]

Counsell can play 2B & SS, Cirillo cannot. Very shortsighted to even suggest Jeff could replace Craig.

Cirillo had a few starts at SS in 2006, and didn't do too bad.

 

[clancyphile]

A bench of Counsell, Cirillo, Gross, and Dillon would look pretty good.

That's a good bench. A better bench: Rottino ©, Counsell (2B/SS), Cirillo (2B/3B/1B/SS), Dillon (LF/RF/3B/1B), and Gwynn (OF) would sound even better.

 

[logan82]

That's a good bench. A better bench: Rottino ©, Counsell (2B/SS), Cirillo (2B/3B/1B/SS), Dillon (LF/RF/3B/1B), and Gwynn (OF) would sound even better.

I would prefer a guy at the backup catcher position that has had more than a year behind the plate and the only way I want Gwynn on the bench is if Gross is either traded or starting. Just my preference.