The answer for today lies in Brewer history

[JohnBriggs12]

In 1978 and 1979, the Brewers won a total of 188 games but didn't win a division because the 1978 Yankees had Goose Gossage, the 1979 Orioles had Dan Stanhouse, and the Brewers had, well, Bill Castro.

 

Going into 1980, Harry Dalton stubbornly didn't want to breakup his everyday lineup which on paper was the best in baseball to upgrade the bullpen. That and some guys having lesser years led to regression to 86 wins that year.

 

All that turned around in 1981, when Dalton bit the bullet and dealt popular and very talented though somewhat troubled young Sixto Lezcano, his number 2 starting pitcher Lary Sorensen, his number one prospect David Green, and a top pitching prospect, Dave LaPoint to the Cardinals for Fingers, Vukovich, and Simmons. The key to the deal wasn't Simmons or even soon to be Cy Younger Vukovich, it was Fingers. Fingers fixed the bullpen troubles that had plagued them for years and the rest is history. Had Fingers not missed the Series that year, well we all know the Brewers would have been World Champions.

 

It takes guts to make big bold moves like that. I'm still waiting.

[patrickgpe]

i'd like to see a similar move, but that doesn't mean i think Doug should give away sheets or anyone to get a closer or something. We really don't know what offers are on the table which is why i won't criticize the lack of moves this week.

[Brian the Automator]

It takes guts to make big bold moves like that. I'm still waiting.

Guts can also easily get you screwed for years.

 

It's not the early 1980's anymore. The gap between the haves and the have-nots is wider than ever. I'm going to go out on a limb and say the same fans who want want to risk everything to play for 2008 would be the first ones to scream bloody murder when a couple players got hurt, the year went down the crapper, and the next 5 years became misery because the Brewers dealt players like Weeks for players like Chad Cordero.

 

[Patrick425]

I understand your point, but first the deal has to be out there. Also, the salaries are much different today then they were back then.

 

That trade would be the equivilant to Hall (OF coming of an off season), Suppan (#2 pitcher - actually it's probably Gallardo), LaPorta (top prospect), and Parra (top young pitcher) for Paplebon, Schilling, and Veritek. Would you like that if it was available? Could the Brewers afford it? What about just a closer, who would you be willing to give up? Hall, LaPorta, and Parra alone are probably not going to get a guy like Street. It's easy to look back on that trade after 35+ years and say "Wow, what a brilliant trade".

 

What Detroit just did was a bold move. We'll see how it plays out for them. They don't always turn out like that 81' trade for the Brewers.

[splitterpfj]

You have some good points in there, Briggs, but I'm not sure the 2008 Brewers will be in the same position. The main reason for that is the realignment that has taken place in the meantime, if the Brewers get to 90 or more wins, they will be in the playoffs, as those Brewers teams would have been then if they'd been playing by today's rules.

 

Despite all of the big names in that trade, the guy who made it all happen was David Green, he was the next Willie Mays, and he was the only guy Whitey Herzog wanted to talk about at the time. If he's not included, that whole thing would have been called off.

 

You never know with young players, is it David Green, or is it Jeff Bagwell?

 

The Brewers hedged their bet by replacing Sorenson with Vuckovich, if the Brewers deal Sheets, they need to get an arm in return too, I don't think there's any question of that.

[dadofandrew]

They probably would not get an arm in a Sheets trade, not a top guy at least, but it would offer huge flexibility to pick one up.

[RussBuss]

Heck, I'll take your 80/81 Brewers and raise you a 06/07 Orioles.

 

The Orioles bullpen in 2006 gave up lead after lead and during the offseason, they spent $40 million to upgrade it. Look what that got them.

The Brewers are in a different situation, but instead of giving up money to free agents, they would be giving up players in trades. Even though they may be filling the closers role, they would most likely create another hole somewhere else.

[rluzinski]

To echo someone else's sentiment in another thread, how many of these kind of threads do we need? Just start a "IT'S DECEMBER 6th AND I'M ALREADY PANICKING THREAD" and be done with it.

[crewcrazy]

I think every fanbase except for the Tigers' has a portion of fans who are panicking at this point. I guess I'm not ready to start panicking about the Brewers yet, since no one else in the division has gotten much better than the Brewers this offseason yet. Sure, the Cubs have been rumored to get Fukudome, Brian Roberts, and Mark Teahen, but they're still only rumors at this point. The Reds tied up most of their offseason budget with one signing. The Astros threw way too much money at Kaz Matsui. The Cards are an absolute mess with the Rolen/La Russa stuff. The Pirates are getting ready to outright release a productive Xavier Nady. I guess my point is that nobody is happy right now, unless you're a Tigers fan (and even then, you might be upset at how much they gave up for Cabrera, Willis, and Renteria).

[Kurt]

Is this about Coco? It would be a bold move for me to buy a Rolex but I need to be smart with the money I have.

[And That]

It would really be bold if the Brewers went out and signed Rollie Fingers tomorrow. His arm has had plenty of rest.

 

The 2008 Brewers already have the potential to be a very good team... the powers that be don't need to make any big, bold gutsy moves bringing in proven, battle-test gritty winning battlers at the cost of further mortgaging the future of the team (see: Linebrink trade). While I'm not comfortable with Turnbow as the closer (who is?), overreaction to the bullpen situation could easily make the matter worse in the long run. We're simply not in the economic position to start wheeling off prospects for a closer that may or may not give us 65-75 innings of well-pitched baseball at the end of games.

 

How many world championships did that big, bold trade bring the Brewers, anyway?

[Jimbo]

How many world championships did that big, bold trade bring the Brewers, anyway?

It got them to the playoffs twice (amazing how many forget about '81), at least in position to win a world championship.

 

 

[brosto1]

The Cleveland Indians bold move last year was signing Joe Borowski to shore up their pen. They were within one game of the World Series.

 

If Melvin wasn't talking to other teams I would be worried, but as long as he is talking he is looking to improve the team. It isn't like he has been afraid to pull the trigger on deals in prior years, involving some key players.

[Robideaux]

The Cleveland Indians bold move last year was signing Joe Borowski to shore up their pen. They were within one game of the World Series.

Was that sarcasm? You do realize that Borowski was terrible last season. He might have just been the worst closer in baseball on a winning team. The indians didn't reach the playoffs because of Borowski, but despite him.

 

[brosto1]

Yes it was, I thought it was obvious enough that it did not need to be in blue.

[RockCoCougars]

OK I'll play. I can see Bill Hall being this generation's Sixto Lezcano (big time popular player, 2 years removed from a huge year), Chris Capuano would be the Lary Sorenson (former 18 game winner), Manna Parra could be David LaPoint (top lefty pitching prospect), and Matt LaPorta could be David Green (fairly weak comparison though because LaPorta is nowhere near the prospect that Green- who was supposed to be the next Clemente- was at the time). It's a little tougher finding parallels to Simmons, Fingers and Vuckovich though but the best I can do would be Posada (grizzled vet, All Star Catcher) Mariano Rivera (best closer of his generation) and Carl Pavano (weak comparison to Vuckovich).

 

Therefore the trade would be.

 

Hall

Capuano

Parra

LaPorta

 

for

 

Posada

Rivera

Pavano

 

Kind of shows how the economics of the game have changed because even if the Yankees were willing, it's doubtful the Brewers would be able to add this much salary. Doubt if either team would go for this deal. I think it's kind of a moot point anyways, because I don't think the Yankees could trade Rivera or Posada by MLB rules because they just signed them.

[hauser42]

Totally different era when you look at the money like it has been stated.

I will go one further, that was a veteran/older team that the front office new was very close to making it and the window was not going to be open for a long time. This team is young and it is not like they have a two year window to make it too the series.

[homer]

"This team is young and it is not like they have a two year window to make it too the series."

 

In reality though, the window is only like three or four years.

[hauser42]

"This team is young and it is not like they have a two year window to make it too the series."

 

In reality though, the window is only like three or four years.

Why do you think it is only that long?? Too many people think that half this team will be gone in 4 years. Till the day I see Mark A say he wont pay a player or a player states he has to go else where I dont see the team being tore apart like a lot do.