3B options, Latest: Ensberg discussion

[DuWayne Steurer]

If we give up any guy that has a 1 in 100 chance of contributing at the major league level for Crede, I'll seriously start to question my faith in the Moustache Man. There's guys out there (Feliz, Iguchi) who will probably outperform Crede, and that they won't have to trade for. And for the record, I really wouldn't want Feliz either.

 

Crede's coming off a .575 OPS in an injury riddled season, and other than one halfway decent year, he wasn't very good before that. When the BEST you can hope to muster from a guy is a .323 OBP, you're asking for trouble.

[Fear The Chorizo]

There's no doubt that Crede would provide a defensive upgrade, and he does have some power, but this is a low OBP, swing hard 6 hitter - this team already has that.

This team doesn't have a good defensive third baseman, which I think is more important to improving their team than bringing in an OBP/OPS machine.

 

Teams can get their offense from many different positions - say Crede plays 3b for the Brewers and stinks it up offensively, you still have a great offensive outfield with Braun, Hart, and Hall, and I don't think I have to talk about how the offensive production from Fielder, Weeks, and Hardy would rank among their positional peers.

 

Crede might be a swing hard hitter, but he strikes out alot less than other players on this team - if Crede were in the Brewers' everyday lineup, he'd obviously be in the 6 or 7 spot in the order. He doesn't draw alot of walks, but at least he tends to put the ball in play. The Brewers wouldn't be asking Crede to become their chief run producer, so whatever he gives them offensively should be considered a bonus.

[JohnBriggs12]

I want a show of hands. How many of you guys out there that are knocking Crede (another Wes Helms? please) know any hardcore White Sox fans?

 

My brother is one as are several other people I work with and play golf with. In 2006, Joe Crede was the most liked by long time Sox fans of any player on their roster.

 

Why? Because he hit tough pitching better than anybody. That's what don't show in Crede's stats. Comparable on the current Brewers? That's easy, J.J. Hardy. Compare Crede's 2006 season (the last one he was healthy) to Hardy's 2007. They're the exact same type hitter. There isn't a fastball anywhere that either of those two can't turn around.

 

Who on the Brewers hit the 2 run homer in that game down the stretch where John Smoltz was dealing? That's right it was Hardy. Crede brings the same ability to hit the really tough guy on a day when he's really tough.

 

In discussing Crede, you have to completely ignore his 2007. He tried to avoid back surgery which the team recommended and tough it out. He couldn't do it. He was too sore. If he's 100% there aren't too many guys I'd want ahead of him at third base at any price, much less the bargain area he will go for.

[Brian the Automator]

I'm with you, JB. A healthy Crede is probably an above-average 3B when you factor in defense. Lets also not forget that we have a guy playing for a big contract after the year's over as well. Never underestimate that motivation.

 

I'd like Crede better than Feliz or any of the other 3B options not named Rolen that I've heard thrown around. If Doug is hell-bent on sending Braun to LF, and if another team isn't willing to part with a LaRoche type prospect, Crede's one of the better available 3B's. I think we've gotten somewhat greedy with some of the heavy offensive output we've got out of other positions...

[Robideaux]

The difference is that one is a SS and one is a 3B. Compared to league average offensive production Crede is a far inferior offensive player at his position.

 

Does Crede know how to win as well?

[Fear The Chorizo]

I agree that Feliz is a better defensive player than Crede, and has no health concerns...

the issue with him (offensive inabilities aside) would be what kind of contract in terms of years will he get? What makes Crede a better option (at least in my eyes) is that after this season Milwaukee wouldn't have any financial committment made to him. Feliz may get 3 years + in this market, which would effect the Brewer budget when extensions start becoming necessary for the Fielders, Brauns, and Harts on this team.

I don't want to sound like I think Crede may be the best player the Brewers could get to play third - I do think he would cost them the least in terms of dollars and trading chips to acquire though, and if healthy I can see the reasoning in trading for him.

[Weirdos19]

Crede only has one year left on his contract and I am 90% sure the Sox will pay most of it. So you could have Crede at 1yr/3mil or sign Feliz for 3yr/21 or Iguchi 2yr/10 mil.

If it's only a marginal prospect, I say do it.

Heck, maybe Jenks is in a deal. Williams and Melvin are certainly familiar with each other. I would guess they would talk at length about many options.

Gwynn, Capuano, Turnbow

for

Crede and Jenks

Gwynn is a centerfielder. They need that bad. Capuano replaces Garland in the rotation and Turnbow is an arm to "replace" Jenks.

[Brian the Automator]

The white sox are still pretty bullpen deficient. They're already relying on MacDougal to return to form, let alone hoping Turnbow can bounce back. I don't think the White Sox would be good bullpen trading partners.

[Fear The Chorizo]

The difference is that one is a SS and one is a 3B. Compared to league average offensive production Crede is a far inferior offensive player at his position.

 

Does Crede know how to win as well?

Since the Brewers can reasonably expect better than league average offensive production from every position in their lineup aside from catcher and 3B(if Braun shifts to left), I think they'd be able to deal with Crede's "weak" 20+ HR, .310ish OBP at the bottom of their lineup.

 

Again, this team's most glaring need in the eyes of almost everyone immediately after the season was improving their defense - OBP and all the other offensive stats don't really matter in the field.

[TCSM]

weirdo, i think thats a pretty realistic trade. we get the closer and 3B we need. they get a young CF and a starting pitcher (fills both needs), and they at least get a RP to fill Jenks spot.

[jwill535]

so lets say we trade for Crede, what do they do at the end of the 2008 season? Are they looking for another 3rd baseman? Do they move Braun back to make room for LaPorta?

[Robideaux]

Fear the Chorizo,

They always matter. The win/loss calculas doesn't depend on some checklist of achieved goals. You can never have enough offense. If 3B is an offensive weakness, that means that we need our pitching and defense to be that much better to offset the reduced run support.

 

Is Crede at 3B and Braun to LF enough of a defensive upgrade to merit the move? Perhaps, but after having my heart set on Rolen in a Brewers uniform, I have to say it is a bit underwhelming.

[Big Reed]

I like Crede. he knows how to win.

[qrk10000]

In discussing Crede, you have to completely ignore his 2007. He tried to avoid back surgery which the team recommended and tough it out. He couldn't do it. He was too sore. If he's 100% there aren't too many guys I'd want ahead of him at third base at any price, much less the bargain area he will go for.

 

Thank you for your enthusiasm about Joe Crede, JB. I admittedly know very little about him beyond the negative posts that I have read here and I appreciate a different opinion. I am actually a bit intrigued to see what it would take to get him now. His defensive numbers look very good, he had a very solid 2006, and he appears to have a decent contract. Plus, the guy is not even 30 yet. All things considered, I would take him over Feliz, Iguchi, and Rolen.

[Fear The Chorizo]

A Crede deal could include some of our fringe bullpen arms along with Mench - If Braun ends up in left Mench would barely see the field, and adding an arm like Aquino or Vargas may be enough - the Brewers could take on all of Crede's salary in that scenario and still end up saving money.

 

IIRC, the Sox really don't have anyone set in stone as their left fielder yet, aside from some young guys they tried out there who didn't really impress - Mench may have some value to them, much more than what he'd be worth to Milwaukee if Braun plays the outfield, since he's not a LH bat.

[TCSM]

*insert eckstein here*....he can also catch and play

[JohnBriggs12]

"Feliz is a better defensive player than Crede"

 

By the slimmest of margins and that's debateable. There was screaming in Chicago in 05 and 06 when Crede didn't win the AL Gold Glove.

 

"One is a SS and one is a 3B"

 

That's ridiculous. Hardy's 2007 numbers were far better than average at 3B or SS as were Crede's 2006 numbers.

 

Take a look at the hit charts for Hardy and Crede in their respective home parks. Hardy has hit 25 of his career 26 Miller Park HR to left of dead center. Crede has hit 46 of his 50 US Cellular HR to left of dead center. In other words, we're talking pull hitters.

 

But here's a number on Crede that shows what kind of player he is. In 2005, the Indians were breathing down the neck of the White Sox. One guy on the White Sox almost singlehandidly kept the Sox on top and that was Crede. In September of 05 Crede batted .379/.419/.759 with 6 HR and 13 RBI. The White Sox would not have won their division, and ultimately the World Championship without a huge contribution when it counted from Joe Crede.

[Big Reed]

Like i said. Crede's a winner, and winners rise to the occasion when the season is on the line.

[lukevan]

So, we won't be able to depend on him until the last month? Forget it!

[Fear The Chorizo]

Robideaux,

 

If you can explain to me how doing anything with a bat directly affects a player making a defensive play, you get a gold star.

 

I really don't care about win/loss calculas - I'm more concerned about improving team defense, even if it means not getting all-star caliber offense from the third base position. And I don't think a healthy Crede is as much of a sacrificial lamb at the plate that others seem to see him as.

 

If by having your heart set on Rolen being with the Brewers you understood that it meant trading away at minimum Capuano plus a quality prospect, plus paying him more than 13 million for 3 more seasons, than I can't agree with you. Would I prefer a healthy Rolen to a healthy Crede, with no concern over what we'd have to give up or pay on the rest of a contract, with possible extensions pending for our young players? Of course I would. Unfortunately, we're not the Yankees, and have to weigh monetary and personnel costs not only for the upcoming season, but for several years down the road.

[splitterpfj]

Crede is indeed an excellent defender, he is also a very streaky hitter, who has some power, while putting up an OBP on the lower end. The glove would help, but the offensive skill set does not improve this team one bit.

 

I'd take Crede for a year at 3B, but it cannot be the last move if it happens. That would make either Hart or Hardy the 2 hitter, which either means you have Hardy miscast in that role, or you have Hall or Crede hitting 5th, which should excite no one.

 

Offensively, you've just replaced Menchkins with Crede, which is not an upgrade, and carries a health risk. Yes, it's a defensive upgrade for certain, but there would need to be another deal for a 2-hitter, which I would think means Hall would be gone. If not, if they add Crede and stop there, this is the wrong player to add to the existing mix.

[Invader3K]

So, we won't be able to depend on him until the last month? Forget it!

Hey, that's pretty much how Geoff Jenkins performed over the last couple years.

[Robideaux]

Fear the Chorizo,

 

The overall goal is winning--not good defense. If better defense means more wins, then I am all for it. If better offense means more wins, I am all for it. My point is that you never have "enough" offense.

 

To win a game, you need more runs than the other team. Sure, Crede will save runs with his glove, but he will cost the Brewers runs with many, many outs (the inverse of a low OBP). Crede is not a good offensive player, but his is good with the glove. He is not the worst option out there, but I'd rather move Hall to 3B and find another OF than live with a guy putting up a .300 OBP.

[Klements Bratwurst]

Ok, something I have to get off my chest....

All last week, Gammons, Olney, and Rosenthal, all were reporting that the Brewers were front runners for Rolen's services, citing the obvious needs of both teams.

Then at the winter meetings, it is reported that the Brewers were close to acquiring Rolen and that the Cards were willing to trade within the division, pay some of the money, and not demand a high level prospect from the Brewers, THEN,

ESPN reports out of nowhere that the talks have "cooled" because of St. Louis not wanting to trade within the division. Finally Melvin indicates to our local boys, Haudricourt and McCalvy that a deal was "all but dead" due to the Brewers backing out to the high demands of the Cardinals (no salary pick up, players the Brewers would have to give up).

Now today, even after Melvin says Joe Crede doesn't interest him, the same big network reporters are claiming that "major league executives" have told them that Brewers are hot after Crede.

I swear, if the devil and a baseball reporter where in a room together and were both asked who are the Brewers targeting for third base, I would probably believe the devil before Gammons, Olney, and Rosenthal.

Oh, I better go, Gammons, Olney, and Rosenthal are saying from another "major league executive" that the Brewers are looking at Santa Clause for 3B......

[And That]

The team's biggest two problems with every day players last year were defense and OBP. Crede fixes the defense, but actually makes the OBP situation worse. There are copious better options... and if you don't care about OBP, why not go with Feliz and not give anyone up?