3B options, Latest: Ensberg discussion

[Big Reed]

so, what are the chances braun can improve his fielding at third? and at what level do we consider his fielding miscue s acceptable? I realize braun's defense cost the brewers several games last year. but I' m not really sold that Ensberg is any better than Counsell or Dillard.

 

I believe when braun said he'd be willing to move to left field it was with the belief that the brewers were about to acquire a gold glove third baseman who was also an all star. If I was Braun, I'd gladly move to left if the brewers had acquired Rolen. I don't believe braun was saying he'd be willing or excited about moving to left if the brewers picked up some non-tenured guy like Ensberg.

[sbrylski]

I don't believe braun was saying he'd be willing or excited about moving to left if the brewers picked up some non-tenured guy like Ensberg.

 

I don't think its his choice. And he's said "if it makes the team better, I'll do it." Bringing in just about any third baseman will be an improvement defensively. All we have to do is find one that can hit better than Gross/Dillon.

[Big Reed]

it's never a player's choice? That's why Iguchi is a Padre and not a Brewer. his choice was to play second verses play third. I truly believe players do have choices. I think hall was given a choice when he signed his extension. I doubt he would have signed if he was not promised a starting position. if hall was informed that he'd go back to being a super utility player once hardy returned, I doubt very much hall would have signed anything. Several relief pitchers made it known they would only sign with teams if they were going to be the closer. I think braun has a lot more input than you give him credit for as to where he plays. And i believe you have to put what Braun said into context with who he said it to and when he said it. I never heard braun say anything. I saw it reported that melvin said that braun said he'd be willing to move if it meant helping out the team. melvin said that braun said that at the time the brewers almost had a deal done to acquire rolen. braun didn't say it when the brewers were trying to acquire Iguchi. and braun didn't come forward and say, i want to play left field, so put me out there. I' m not even sure braun said anything. maybe it was his wife. maybe it was his agent. maybe braun had one of those cellular phones and it died in the middle of the conversation, and melvin just assumed braun said he'd be willing to move. maybe he didn't hear the part about only if Rolen was acquired part.

 

All I've ever seen about braun's statement was a report that melvin said braun said. That's third hand stuff. Could melvin be lying about what braun actually said? Maybe braun said nothing? it's not like Melvin has ever lied to the press before. has he?

[Team Canada]

it's never a player's choice? ... I truly believe players do have choices.

 

Of course, Franscisco Cordero begs to differ..

 

[sbrylski]

Reed: I fail to see how FA or players looking for contract extension have anything to do with Ryan Braun. For a free agent, of course he holds to power to pick where he goes and where he plays on the field if someone is willing to put him there. Bill Hall may have had some leverage in his situation, but I doubt he choose CF, a spot he's never really played. He probably just wanted a regular spot, and why wouldn't we have given it too him anyway? And where or how often you play aside, he had three years left under Brewers control - of course you sign a deal to lock in the money, if its fair.

 

So free agents have control for the most part.

Bill Hall, maaaybe.

 

Ryan Braun, minimal. He is under Brewers control six more seasons. If we tell him to get a mask on and crouch behind the plate, he has two options - play catcher or go home. He has zero leverage.

[brewcrew00]

I vote for a guy like Ensberg at this point. My reasoning behind it is that regardless of what direction they decide to go, I just hope they are pointing Braun to the position he needs to be working on SOON. Morgan is a defensive upgrade, OBP guy, and shouldn't feel pressure to drive in runs seeing as he won't be filling the same role in Milwaukee as he was in Houston as a run producer.

[endaround]

Braun almost lost the ROY vote due to his defense. I think he realizes his best option is to move lest he gets a new last name. You know "Ryan Braun horrible defensive player hit a home run today" "Ryan Braun horrible defensive player made the crucial error"

[RockCoCougars]

I agree with the sentiment that it's foolish to shift Braun to the outfield for a garbage player like Ensberg. If Braun can improve his defense, he is much more valuable to the team at third. Offense is much easier to find in the outfield. If Rolen can be acquired I'd move Braun, otherwise I'd keep him at third and find a veteran to put in left.

[trwi7]

I agree with the sentiment that it's foolish to shift Braun to the outfield for a garbage player like Ensberg. If Braun can improve his defense, he is much more valuable to the team at third. Offense is much easier to find in the outfield. If Rolen can be acquired I'd move Braun, otherwise I'd keep him at third and find a veteran to put in left.

 

Garbage? I guess lots of players in the league are garbage then? Ensberg would add some OBP to a lineup that desperately needs it. He's also a much better defender than Braun. And if offense is easier to find in the outfield then how come we haven't found something yet?

[RockCoCougars]

Garbage? I guess lots of players in the league are garbage then? Ensberg would add some OBP to a lineup that desperately needs it. He's also a much better defender than Braun. And if offense is easier to find in the outfield then how come we haven't found something yet?

Just because Ensberg will take a walk doesn't mean he's a good player. His OBP's since his one big season have been less than stellar. For god's sake, Craig Counsell had a higher OBP the past two seasons, and he seemed like an automatic out to me last year. Ensberg has been let go by two teams in the past six months, think they know something? He hasn't broke a .240 average since 2005, and has been striking out at a clip of about once every four at bats since then. Hardly a guy worth shifting Braun for.

[trwi7]

His OBP's since his one big season have been less than stellar. For god's sake, Craig Counsell had a higher OBP the past two seasons, and he seemed like an automatic out to me last year.

 

.291/.377/.530

.275/.330/.411

.283/.388/.557

.235/.396/.463

.230/.322/.404

 

.234/.328/.304

.241/.330/.315

.256/.350/.375

.255/.327/.347

.220/.323/.309

 

There's Counsell's numbers since 2003 and Ensberg's numbers since 2003. Tell me again how Counsell had a .396 OBP in 2006 again.

[twobrewers]

Hardly a guy worth shifting Braun for.

I don't think we have to have a "guy" worth shifting Braun for. Braun was a bad defender.

 

Just because we don't have a perfect replacement this year doesn't mean he shouldn't be moved. We can always move him and find a perfect replacement in the future. The point is, if you are going to move him at some point to the OF - why delay the inevitable.

[RockCoCougars]

There's Counsell's numbers since 2003 and Ensberg's numbers since 2003. Tell me again how Counsell had a .396 OBP in 2006 again.

I stand corrected. I still have no interest in Ensberg though.

[DrWood]

did I post in this thread yet that Ensberg had a bad shoulder injury and he's never been the same since?

well he did.

[Big Reed]

my point was that Braun made his comments when it appeared the brewers were about to trade for rolen. Sure, braun has zero leverage. but braun didn't just come out of the blue and say he'd be overjoyed and willing to move to left field. You have to take what braun said within the context and time he said it. braun's comments were made in response to possibly landing Rolen- a gold glove third baseman.

 

I recall a young stud shortstop who beat out the incumbant shortstop in spring training for the starting shortstop position only to be informed because of his tremendous athletic ability, he was now being asked to start at third base because the guy he beat out couldn't play third base very well, and the brewers were confident this young athletic shortstop could make the transistion a lot easier. that young player had zero leverage as well. he shifted over to third base , but was not a very happy camper about doing so. he allowed his emotions to get the best of him and admittedly made a lot of intentional errors playing third base, and forcing the brewers to trade him away. his name was Gary Sheffield. Things might have turned out a lot differently, if the brewers had allowed Sheffield to remain at shortstop rather than forcing him to play third base.

 

Like Braun, Sheffield had no leverage in his position move. he did what he was told. I doubt Braun has the same personality as Sheffield does. the point I make is that Braun may not be as thrilled about moving to left field as Melvin says he is.

[Big Reed]

in reading the DLIST thread in the major league forum, it says tejada was almost a brewer, but Houston was willing to give up more for him. Wow. tejada would have been nice. Melvin is definitely looking for a third baseman.

 

Wwll duh. now I'm starting to sound like Senator Mitchell stating the obvious.

 

if melvin was about to trade for tejada last week, the brewers must have more money in their payroll than we are being led to believe. or the trade could have included mench and Wise as part of the package. it looks like melvin was working on the orioles against the cardinals. Well, at least we can still go back to the Cards.

[theavrock]

Who cares if he is thrilled or not. The bottom line is that the TEAM will be better with Braun in the OF and off of third base. If that doesn't appease to him then I could care less about upsetting him. Baseball more than any is a TEAM sport. I think thats what a lot of us are failing to realize. I would love to have a 30+ HR hitting, Gold Glovecaliber player at every position, but its not going to happen.

 

That said the next best thing is getting people who can fill our holes. The biggest holes we have in the field are crappy defenders and the biggest hole we have at the plate is guys that carry low OBP. Ensberg would fill both of those holes. His BA is about the only thing that is slipping with him. He still carries a high OBP relative to his BA (100 points or close to it higher than BA), he doesn't strike out that much and his OPS is still very respectable for athird baseman. And lastly he plays plus defense. We lost the division alone on defense last year.

 

We have plenty of run producers, Ensberg can simply get on base at a good clip and play great defense and that coupled with putting Braun's bat in the OF will hands down improve our team. It's not as sexy as adding someone like ROlen or Tejada. To be honest I could care less about sexy I just want the playoffs.

[RyDogg66]

Who cares if he is thrilled or not. The bottom line is that the TEAM will be better with Braun in the OF and off of third base. If that doesn't appease to him then I could care less about upsetting him. Baseball more than any is a TEAM sport. I think thats what a lot of us are failing to realize. I would love to have a 30+ HR hitting, Gold Glovecaliber player at every position, but its not going to happen.

 

That said the next best thing is getting people who can fill our holes. The biggest holes we have in the field are crappy defenders and the biggest hole we have at the plate is guys that carry low OBP. Ensberg would fill both of those holes. His BA is about the only thing that is slipping with him. He still carries a high OBP relative to his BA (100 points or close to it higher than BA), he doesn't strike out that much and his OPS is still very respectable for athird baseman. And lastly he plays plus defense. We lost the division alone on defense last year.

 

We have plenty of run producers, Ensberg can simply get on base at a good clip and play great defense and that coupled with putting Braun's bat in the OF will hands down improve our team. It's not as sexy as adding someone like ROlen or Tejada. To be honest I could care less about sexy I just want the playoffs.

Not to rain on your parade, but Baseball is more of a one-on-one sport than most. Pitcher vs. Batter. The other players only come into play later on.

 

[theavrock]

Right and thats why in 2004 when Ben Sheets was so phenomenal that Brewers team won so many games.

[Tbadder]

I don't mind the Ensberg scenario, but if I knew for sure that Hardy was going to hit 25 homers every year, I'd shift him to 3rd and look for a phenomenal defensive ss like Everett. Shift Braun to LF and keep Hall in CF.

[brewerfan82]

I don't mind the Ensberg scenario, but if I knew for sure that Hardy was going to hit 25 homers every year, I'd shift him to 3rd and look for a phenomenal defensive ss like Everett. Shift Braun to LF and keep Hall in CF.

I think that's over thinking the situation. Even with a defensive wiz at SS, I'm not sure that the defense with Hardy moving to 3rd would be that much better than Hardy at short and a league average defensive 3B. And the offense would be much worse with a guy like Everett in the lineup rather than an average 3B.

 

[Big Reed]

most professional athletes have huge egos. i don't know if braun has one yet or not. I've read a few things about him that would suggest he has some swagger about him.

 

if a professional athlete is forced to play a position he doesn't like, sometimes they play the position so badly they hope they will be moved back or traded. Sheffield was one of those types of athletes. Charlie Bell is becoming one of those types of athletes. just think before the dog days if Michael Vick was asked for the good of the team to start a RB and not QB and they drafted a true QB. Would Vick have been very willing to make the move? Molitor was one of the few team players who didn't complain much about always being moved to another position. Today's players are not the same as i n the 80's and they do complain about a lot of little things like moving positions.

 

I realize melvin has said his sights are on finding a third baseman. That's why he talked to the orioles about their shortstop. i wonder if he also talked to them about Roberts? Roberts can play outfield and would be a very nice lead-off hitter. i wonder how many teams melvin has talked to and inquired about their second baseman and shortstops? For all we know, melvin is talking to the Cubs about teahan or Derosa and the white Sox about Fields and not Crede. Julio franco must have played a few games at third somewhere down the road. the only thing that is a sure thing about what melvin says is his misdirections.

 

I highly doubt melvin is going to move braun to the outfield for just any 3b.

 

and for those that like ensberg, he got a lot of walks when he batted clean-up. last year, when he batted 7th with no protection, he fell apart suggesting his great OBP may have only been because opposing pitchers preferred to walk him the two previous years. I recall in little league getting a couple of walks. it wasn't because i was a great hitter or had good eyesight. it was because the guy hitting after me was even worse than me. i hate to say it but i have to believe a lot of ensberg's walks were not the result of him being a patient hitter, but rather teams knew if they put ensberg on base, the likelihood of him scoring was nil. for a guy with such a high OBP, Ensberg sure didn't score many runs. if i was a n opposing team's manager, i'd tell my pitchers to walk Ensberg, just so we could get the next guy out. While it may sound like I' m reall y down on ensberg, I'll give him credit as being better than some other third baseman who are now back-ups in MLB. ensberg may be a nice pick-up, but I wouldn't want the brewers to sign him with the idea that he will be their starter. he would be a great back -up insurance plan for when the starter - ROLEN - gets hurt.

[Oldcity]

Well I'd probably put Ensberg second in the Brewers lineup. He'd get plenty of chances there.

[colbyjack]

I'm not a fan of Ensberg. He's been a popular name around here for a few years, but practically any team has been able to pick him up for the past couple of years, with most passing at the opportunity (even the OBP-conscious A's). Now the stat-minded Padres let him go, which speaks volumes to me, and of course there is an injury condition to contend with.

 

The OBP is nice (real nice and Uecker and Powell would say), but there are just too many other things setting off red flags IMO.

 

I still like the idea of Felipe Lopez as a plan B to some of the bigger names we've been teased with.

[TooLiveBrew]

If Felipe Lopez isn't on Melvin's radar as the first pick for plan B, he certainly should be. If that's fallback #1, I like it.

 

and for those that like ensberg, he got a lot of walks when he batted clean-up. last year, when he batted 7th with no protection, he fell apart suggesting his great OBP may have only been because opposing pitchers preferred to walk him the two previous years.

The OBP had to do with his power. Pitchers prefer to be careful to guys with pop, not based on where they hit in a lineup.