Sheets? Latest: Dodgers, Mariners

[bklynbrewcrew]

Why dont we just sign Sheets? The guy is an ace and worth taking a chance on. Lets offer him 5yrs 65 mil and see if we can get a deal done. I certainly wouldnt trade him for overhyped guys like Lester and Ellsbury.

[RyDogg66]

Beane wants Ellsbury and Lester for Haren. That offer is barely an offer.

 

Beane prizes 0-3 guys. Again, if he wants to pay Hall, he can pay Haren.

 

Maybe if we toss Carlos in...

I agree that my initial thought on the deal was light, but if BOS isnt giving up Ellsbury and Lester for Santana, how could he expect that return for Haren? Additionally, a trade with Oakland would be after Boston (Sheets) and New York (Santana) were out of the running. Leaving Milwaukee to compete with the Mets.

 

[RyDogg66]

Why dont we just sign Sheets? The guy is an ace and worth taking a chance on. Lets offer him 5yrs 65 mil and see if we can get a deal done. I certainly wouldnt trade him for overhyped guys like Lester and Ellsbury.

I agree with this 100%, but it isnt likely to happen, so might as well explore a trade possibility.

 

[Fatter than Joey]

I don't think that there is any question that Ellsbury is ultra-high in his value -- however I would trade him in an instant for TGJ. -- I think he has a much higher ceiling than TGJ.

 

Ellsbury hit 3 HRs last year at the MLB level, TGJ struggles to get balls into the gaps.

 

Ellsbury got expressed through the Boston system, Gwynn got to spend a year at each level.

 

I think given the fact that Ellsbury was dealing with adjustments, has a higher OBP, and much higher SLG, he still has room for growth.

 

I don't think he will ever be a 30 HR sort of guy, but he sure seems like the sort of hitter that could rack up a lot of 2Bs and have a great OPS based on 2bs and 3bs. TGJ pretty much struggles to get the ball into the OF, let alone hit a gap.

 

One thing that bothers me about TGJ, because of his pathetic lack of power, it seems like people want to assume he does everything else very well -- Take walks, Play D, Steal bases, make contact, etc... when in reality Ellsbury actually does all these things much better than TGJ -- and has the ability to hit the ball into the OF.

 

I am pretty sure that if Ellsbury ended up in Milw. he would be quickly included in the Hart/Fielder/Braun lovefest.

 

Jacoby Ellsbury is the player Brady Clark's mom hoped he would be.

[dadofandrew]

Beane will just hang onto Haren and wait for a deal if he has to. He has no time frame, and eventually, someone will lose a SP, or they'll have a slump, and he'll get his pair of prospects.

[fondybrewfan]

ok, I can handle sarcasm, but it helps if you add in a thought or two of your own instead of just criticism. If Mench needs to go into the Stl. deal, then maybe we add Parra to the deal. I dont want to make up a proposal that involves 4 or 5 Brewers going to OAK for Haren. Hall is signed to a great contract and could play SS over the disappointing Crosby, Gwynn is ready to start in CF and Parra could go into the back of their rotation.

Would it be possible that the return for Haren be greater than that for Santana considering Haren's contract situations is much more reasonable?

[fondybrewfan]

could handle a Villanueva, Hal, and TGJ swap for Haren. If for Blanton I wouldnt give up nearly as much

[dadofandrew]

As for Sheets, $13M per is 50% low. No way the Crew is giving a pitcher with his health history $20M per.

[bklynbrewcrew]

Im sure Ellsbury is better than Gwynn but so is just about everyone else. Its funny to me how Ellsbury and Melky Cabrera are considered hot prospects. There is nothing special about either of them in fact Cabrera is a 4th outfielder at best. As far as Gwynn is concerned we need to trade him before people realize how awful he is.

[bklynbrewcrew]

With Sheets injury history maybe he is willing to take security over full market value. We may as well find out. If he says no and we have to trade him I would really like to get better guys than the ones that have been mentioned.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Why dont we just sign Sheets? The guy is an ace and worth taking a chance on. Lets offer him 5yrs 65 mil and see if we can get a deal done. I certainly wouldnt trade him for overhyped guys like Lester and Ellsbury.

 

Maybe Melvin's simply waiting to get a full season from Sheets after giving him his last contract extension...after the first three seasons of said contract, he's still waiting.

 

If Sheets had been more of a workhorse over the previous three seasons of his deal, I think the Brewers exhaust every effort to get him resigned - with all his random injuries, I think his value is too low for the Brewers to get equal value in return for trading a pitcher with "ace" potential if he stays healthy. So, unless the Brewers get blown away by an offer from another team, I think Sheets' best value is to pitch his free agent year in Milwaukee and determine his value on the FA market by his pitching performance in 08.

 

I'd like to have Sheets as a career Brewer as much as anyone, but it's next to impossible for a small market team to be able to afford keeping a talent (injury-riddled or not) around for his entire career. I'll be sad to see him leave, but if the Brewers trade him or let him walk after next year, I'll hang my hat on being able to watch him pitch for 8 seasons, which would be four years longer than I thought I'd see him in a Brewers uniform before he signed his last contract extension.

[brewerfan82]

Sorry about that, I think you'd have to give up some major talent get Haren. Probably start with Villanueva and throw in Parra/Gamel and maybe a Jeffress/Salome type. I'd love to get Haren and I might overpay to get him if we do deal Sheets, but I'm not sure I'd want to give up the talent it would take to pry him away from the A's.

[RyDogg66]

As for Sheets, $13M per is 50% low. No way the Crew is giving a pitcher with his health history $20M per.

Well Al, I dont think Sheets get 20 mil on the open market, I think if he is healthy this year and pitches like we know he can that he can get something close to 17-18 million per for 5 years. But if you sign him before the season starts, he has to look at this injury history and if he gets hurt again this year and cant finish, he might be looking at a one or two year deal worth 10-12 million to try to re-establish his value. Ben gains more security sacrificing some dollars for some extra security.

 

 

 

65 for 5 is a 15 a year, that isnt sacrificing too much for sheets, but its locking him up for a reasonable number given this market and what a guy like Suppan is getting.

 

[Brian the Automator]

Sheets, Turnbow & Ohka for Lester, Buccholz, Papelbon, Ellsbury, and Pedroia.

[madtowndrunkard]

I think Sheets is a $15mill per year pitcher. I could see a team putting health clauses in his deal, if he makes 25 or more starts he gets $20million or something like that.

[Jaylyn]

Well that settles it then:

 

Sheets for some combination of Ellsbury or Lester and Declarman/Hansen

Capuano for Rolen

Mench, Gwynn and Hall for Dan Haren

 

I like the first two Ry, Haren would be great, but I don't see the A's going for it. However, it looks like Ervin Santana can be had. Wonder what the Angels would take for him. Had an off year by glancing at stats. another buy low guy?

[BritInWI]

65 for 5 is a 15 a year, that isnt sacrificing too much for sheets, but its locking him up for a reasonable number given this market and what a guy like Suppan is getting.

It's 13 a year, not 15. 5 x 15 = 75.

There's no way the Brewers get enough value coming back to overcome his loss at this time. As many others here have pointed out, if the Red Sox won't part with Ellsbury and Lester for Santana, then they won't for Sheets. The Brewers' best hope is to sit on Sheets for now and see if the Yankees bite on Santana. Then I suspect the Red Sox will change their tune if they want to keep pace with the Yankees. And if I'm wrong and they don't, where's the harm? The Brewers will still have Ben Sheets for at least another season and won't have given him away for just one young, unproven player and yet another relief pitcher who will be worn out by August because he's made to pitch too many innings....

[Invader3K]

I think Sheets is a $15mill per year pitcher. I could see a team putting health clauses in his deal, if he makes 25 or more starts he gets $20million or something like that.

I'm sorry, but I think that is getting into Yankees-esque "We have so much money we can spend like drunken sailors", territory. The Brewers can't afford that much on one pitcher with a questionable health history.

 

I know I brought this up in another thread recently, but I heard something interesting on MLB on XM the other day that reminded me about it. Buck Martinez and some other were talking about the difference between a "#1 pitcher" and an "ace pitcher." We throw around the "Ben Sheets is an ace" stuff around here pretty freely. To me, a true ace makes a minimum of 25 starts a year (and that doesn't include those where he leaves the game in the first two or three innings), and gets about 15 wins a year consistently (and yes, I know that's not always the best measure of a starting pitcher, but let's not go down that road). Sheets hasn't done any of that in the last three seasons. He's a #1 pitcher, but I don't feel he is an ace pitcher at this point, based on his last three seasons.

 

I think we need to be more realistic about Sheets as far as his value, and what he has actually been bringing to the table.

 

[madtowndrunkard]

I wasn't saying we should pay him that $. I'm just saying that is what he'd likely get on the open market. GOD no, the last thing I want to see is the brewers spending that kind of money on Sheets. I want to see him traded now. If he misses more time this year with injuries his value will plummet. But if we can't get anything even close to equal value then hold onto him and hope for the best. Maybe trade him right before the deadline? Or let him walk via FA? This is why I want him traded now, the alternative options are not good one's. The trade market isn't going get much better then it is now. No one is interested in overpaying for the low quality FA's that are out there right now. Melvin must address our needs this week.

 

 

As for Sheets being and ACE. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/laugh.gif Santana = Ace , Sheets = equals unreliable #1 starter. I agree 100%

 

He's a #1 starter when healthy. Overall I'd say he's a #2 starter. I expect my #1 starter to be dependable. Gallardo is our #1 starter and FUTURE ace.

[dadofandrew]

The 30 best pitchers are #1's, and there's no doubt Sheets is one of them.

[aracko]

The 30 best pitchers are #1's, and there's no doubt Sheets is one of them.

 

Your going to find strong disagreement from me here. Your only as good as your history shows, and I can name 30 pitchers whos 2007 I would have rather had than Sheets 2007.

 

If your going to tell me that when he is on the mound he is top 30, heck yes thats true. He is top 10.

So is Pedro Martinez. So was Bartolo Colon.

[trwi7]

By the way does anyone have any idea who the 8 teams Ben has in his contract that he would accept a trade to?

 

I have no idea but if I had to guess I'd say both New York teams, Atlanta, Houston, Texas, both Los Angeles teams and I have no idea maybe San Diego?

[brains and braun]

I think comparing him to those guys is a bit unfair as Sheets is younger and has never had a truly worrisome injury for a pitcher. I think that the Crew should make an honest effort to re-sign him.

[Weirdos19]

Anybody think Sheets for Youkilis and Delcarmen would work.

 

No need to deal for Rolen after that. Youk is an OBP machine.

[Tbadder]

gotta throw in a good, can't miss minor league catcher