...and Gord Ash as Sancho Panza

[GenoSeligPrieb]

So CoCo Cordero's gone now, too. Personally, it was very disappointing, but debating Cordero's merits is not the point of this new thread. I'm examining why it seems the majority of Milwaukee fans is perfectly fine with letting Linebrink, and now Cordero, go.

 

Perhaps it's a form of Brewer fan defense mechanism. After decades of name free agents thumbing their noses at Bud, Wendy and now Mark, the good fans of Milwaukee have not only made their peace with this, but have convinced themselves (with a little help from the Seligs, of course) that not paying for top talent is the responsible thing to do, and is always a "good baseball decision."

 

So many fiscally conservative Milwaukee fans will try to rationalize that we don't need Cordero in 2008 and beyond...or Scott Linebrink...or Carlos Lee when he left...or any other Brewer veteran who has earned more than the league average. Is Mark like a CEO of a corporation we hold stock in, and we need to watch his spending? Why do we care about them maybe exceeding their budget so much?

 

In other markets, whenever the GM folds his cards as the stakes get too intimidating, he is skewered by fans and media alike. In Milwaukee? Doug Quixote is applauded for tilting at a few more windmills, and not investing in good players, because there's *gasp!* some risk involved. There's an inherent risk factor in every ballplayer. And when our GM keeps "making a stand" every winter, and taking a pass on some distinguished players, then the fans, who turned out in record numbers, are being short-changed.

 

It's like a father taking a moral stand and stopping his sons and daughters from ever playing video games. "They ruin your mind. They're expensive. Go play outside!" Sure, but when the rest of their schoolmates enjoy them and talk about them during recess, like it or not, your kids fall behind a bit socially. And since their friends are apparently not rotting from the inside from their PlayStation, you have to adjust to the climate.

 

An argument is often made that we need all this saved up money to pay Braun, Fielder, Hardy, etc. when they all eventually qualify for big contracts. That could become a moot point if they follow Cordero and Linebrink out the door anyway. Someone, even Cincinnati, will always find a way to "want it more" and outbid Doug. Hell, Prince Fielder's agent is Scott Boras! Jason Giambi will either retire of be forced out of the game by the time Fielder becomes eligible for free agency, so Prince playing first in the Bronx in a few years, is a very plausible possibility.

 

Still, I wondered myself why so many free agent All-Stars choose to go elsewhere instead of Milwaukee. And I keep hearing that while Attanasio is making some strides, the Brewers are still considered too cheap. Every time Doug Melvin will (is instructed to?) drop out of the bidding for a top-flight player, the perception is "same old Brewers pinching pennies." But they've raised payroll, right? Yep. But so has everyone else since Mark bought the team.

 

Right or wrong, if you keep choosing not to pay free agents, they'll stop believing you're legit, and your franchise just isn't perceived as an attractive career destination. The Tigers were skewered here by the majority at BF, when they "overpaid" in the Ivan Rodriguez deal. But that deal reinvigorated the fanbase and influenced other top free agents to choose Detroit. Now they're back as a contender again. The Cubs signed Ted Lilly? Not worth it! Magglio Ordonez? He's over the hill and too expensive! And when the Red Sox landed Josh Beckett, but only if they also paid Mike Lowell, the general feeling here was that taking on Lowell was wasteful, and we're glad the Brewers didn't do something like that. Gotta break a few eggs, sometimes...

 

OK, admittedly, Francisco Cordero has his flaws. He's expensive, on the wrong side of 30, and was just awful on the road. But when you make organizational decisions to let Cordero AND Scott Linebrink leave, and Turnbow is restored to the closer role, and your front office types are quick to comment on those Type A compensatory draft picks, you're telling Major League Baseball "We'll only compete so far, and then you can take our best players if you like."

 

So the team's worse off, but our guy drew his line in the sand. Too bad not enough players, GMs, agents, writers and fans cared.

[logan82]

An argument is often made that we need all this saved up money to pay Braun, Fielder, Hardy, etc. when they all eventually qualify for big contracts. That could become a moot point if they follow Cordero and Linebrink out the door anyway.

 

They are going to follow Cordero out the door anyway. They are also going to comand large amounts of money before they become free anents. Like it or not Milwaukee has to be smarter with their money than many other clubs. 4 year contracts for relievers is not a good idea. Of course there is risk with any player, but when a player costs less it is less of a risk. A younger player is also less of an injury risk so a younger player has less risk. We will never have more than a handful of high salary players. All your eggs in one basket?

[Oldcity]

Well, for one, the Brewers truly didn't need Carlos Lee. His replacement, Corey Hart, was just as good and will be better soon. Secondly, they've already (presumably) added Riske, who should adequately replace Linebrink. Three, the Winter Meetings haven't even begun so I'm guessing that's why most posters here are not flipping out yet about the bullpen (to be honest, I don't think it's THAT bad with Riske in the mix, but I understand that won't be a common opinion around here).

 

If the Brewers get Rolen for third base and move Braun to left, the team ERA will improve without doing anything to the pitching staff. Rolen's bat would also be a good bet to be an improvement over Jenkins'. If you can't improve the team in one area (bullpen), at least improve it in other areas (defense and offense). Of course, this is assuming nothing more is done to improve the bullpen, which is probably an unlikely case.

 

So even while leaving picks out of this, if they can get Rolen, you're looking at a better team than '07. Add in the picks they got for the Coco and Linebrink and it's a slam dunk.

[sbrylski]

Perhaps it's a form of Brewer fan defense mechanism. After decades of name free agents thumbing their noses at Bud, Wendy and now Mark, the good fans of Milwaukee have not only made their peace with this, but have convinced themselves (with a little help from the Seligs, of course) that not paying for top talent is the responsible thing to do, and is always a "good baseball decision."

 

Its just from the perspective you're looking from. If you've come to simply accept the fact that we will never be a big spender, which is essentially a truth no matter who owns this team, then you can root your evaluation of our GM and owner in context of the team's limitations. In that sense, often times you'll agree that cases such as letting Cordero walk for a higher bidder are sound decisions for the future of the club, based on out clubs limitations.

 

If you are going to question why we can't spend or don't spend more, and then disapprove of moves that save money, you will be dissapointed often. Complaining about the owner is pointless and does nothing.

 

It also would depend on your desire for long term success verse up-and-down results. Over-spending now would put this team in a bind in a few years.

 

So many fiscally conservative Milwaukee fans will try to rationalize that we don't need Cordero in 2008 and beyond...or Scott Linebrink...or Carlos Lee when he left...or any other Brewer veteran who has earned more than the league average. Is Mark like a CEO of a corporation we hold stock in, and we need to watch his spending? Why do we care about them maybe exceeding their budget so much?

 

What do you propose we do about it? Is there a certain number of posts we could make that would force Mark to spend more money? Don't you think it would be boring to whine about not having enough money every time Melvin makes a move?

 

Also, what's happened since 2003 when we've let more "veterans making more than the league average" go than we've brought in? We're gotten better. How dare Mark Attanasio and Doug Melvin improve the team while earning a profit!

 

Right or wrong, if you keep choosing not to pay free agents, they'll stop believing you're legit, and your franchise just isn't perceived as an attractive career destination.

 

What about Jeff Suppan? To a lesser extent, Damian Miller before him? Ben Sheets signed a fairly large extention for the time.

 

Yes, it sucks that there isn't an even playing field. I've learned to love it. This is going to sound overly harsh, but you might be better suited as a Cubs fan.

 

So the team's worse off, but our guy drew his line in the sand. Too bad not enough players, GMs, agents, writers and fans cared.

 

It's December 1st. Games don't start until April. Let's wait and see what else they do with their resources before we call for their head. Is it that hard to believe that allocating our resources elsewhere might make the team better?

[Team Canada]

Geno, I think you're actually way off when talking about Cordero. Where do you get all this stuff about not spending money and dropping out of the bidding, when in fact we were within a couple million dollars and never even got a chance to match the deal? The fact that Doug stated that they were ready to give him a salary right behind Billy Wagner (which is certainly a fair valuation) is a clear indication that they're opening to spending major dollars. Just because CoCo chose to leave for some reason doesn't make it the Brewers fault, and doesn't indicate some sort of defense mechanism if fans aren't upset with DM for a decision that was really beyond his control (although apparenlty it "wasn't up to" Cordero either...)

[Raw Biz]

I'm really getting tired of everyone saying that we should have resigned Cordero. Sure, it would have been nice but everyone knew he was going to cost 10+ mil a year and want 3-4 years. Closers really shouldn't be paid that much (especially for smaller market teams). Sure they are important but they are the most over-rated "position" in the game. To spend 10+ mil on a guy who pitches an inning at a time a few times a week just isn't smart when you have limited resources. After all, if you don't have the talent to get a lead in the 9th inning, what's the point of a closer anyway. I'm not saying that the Brewers don't have the talent to do so (they obviously do) but spending that money elsewhere would be a much better idea. Ideally, it'd be spent on a LF or 3B. The Brewers have always been able to find cheap closers who perform well and when they leave, someone else fills the role. Cordero was good but there's no reason to pay him so much and I'm glad we didn't. Plus, we get two picks out of him (and Linebrink) so in a few years, when our young stars are leaving for free agency (which seems to be inevitable), we'll have more young stars (hopefully) on the way up.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Melvin made a very legitimate offer to Cordero, who chose to not even let Melvin match or exceed the offer he recieved from the Reds. That's hardly Melvin's fault, and it's certainly not "drawing a line in the sand."

 

It might not be our money, but it is someones, and they choose not to lose money on the team. I don't think so many people like it as accept what it is. Grousing about it isn't going to do one thing to change it. The payroll/small market situation is what it is, and it certainly doesn't look to be changing anytime soon. The club had a great box office season, but that doesn't mean squat when they're locked into the worst TV deal in the entire league.

 

Getting stars is great. I'm all for it. But when we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the payroll is going to be X amount of dollars, it's hardly constructive at all to complain that it's not X+Z. It's not going to be, there's barely any point in discussing it. Paying a guy who pitches one inning every other day (we can argue the importance of said inning, I think the closer role is horribly over-rated) 1/7th the payroll supercedes the team being able to get any other of these supposed star caliber players just waiting for Doug to throw sacks with $$$ signs full of money at them.

 

I'd love to have a 150 million dollar budget, but it's not going to happen. When discussing who the team can/might/should get, I think people try to keep that in mind.

[tigerbrew]

I'm examining why it seems the majority of Milwaukee fans is perfectly fine with letting Linebrink, and now Cordero, go.

Actually, Coco was a tough loss to me as I was really hoping he stayed. But I've since moved on and now I'm hoping the Brewers get Nathan.

 

I'm perfectly fine with letting Linebrink go however, probably due to my unhappiness with that lousy trade. Right when news of the Linebrink trade broke, I vehemently opposed it in this forum as I believe it is a mistake. Plus losing one of my favourite Brewers prospect in Inman was very unpleasant.

[Paulus88]

I guess my disagreement involves the premise that if the Brewers spend more money and take on riskier contracts that other FA's will sign because of this willingness to spend. Will Fielder be more likely to sign with the Brewers if we signed Cordero simply because we spent on him? I would argue no, the individual money offered will have a bigger impact.

 

The idea of spending money to spend money and make the Brewers market contenders led to Marquis Grissom and Jeffrey Hammonds and no resulting tidal wave.

[Diggr14]

why would you go after a guy like Nathan? It will cost the organization too much (both financially-(if re-signed) and in prospects). IMO it makes less sense to go after Nathan than it would have been to re-sign Cordero.

 

 

I like what they have done with the Riske addition. With how skittish closers are, I wouldn't be shocked to see things click in turnbow's head for a season again. He still has the power and the stuff, when it all boils down the walks are the problem. All of his ancillary numbers are very similiar to cordero sans the walks.

[pogokat]

Riske+ 2 draft picks > Linebrink

 

now, argue that Inman, Thatcher, Garrison> than both if you will...

 

but i don't think you can really complain about riske and picks over linebrink

[valpocrewsader]

Awesome post as always Geno. Sometimes I wish this franchise would just move out of Milwaukee rather than the constant pretending that we're MLB-caliber. It's become apparent over and over that we just can't "hang". It's embarassing and frustrating and as much as I love baseball and the Brewers, there's just too many "what's the point?" moments as I follow this team. We are so ungodly lucky right now to have all-star and mvp level talent on this team for rookie salaries and yet we'll still probably not capitalize on it in the end due to letting guys like Lee and Cordero go while replacing them with no names. And when this three year window passes with nothing to show for it, we'll be back on the "15 year plan" of sucking badly, taking high draft picks, and crossing our fingers really really hard.

[PeaveyFury]

Sometimes I wish this franchise would just move out of Milwaukee rather than the constant pretending that we're MLB-caliber.

 

Yeah, how dare we barely miss out on winning the division last year in the last week of the season?

 

and yet we'll still probably not capitalize on it in the end due to letting guys like Lee and Cordero go while replacing them with no name

 

Go take a look at Carlos Lee's 2007 stats, then take a good look at what his "no name" replacement Corey Hart put up last year as well.

[dadofandrew]

What Peavey said. Talk about a negative nellie.

[endaround]

But guys the Brewers just aren't as good as those freespending Astros!

[Baldkin]

So CoCo Cordero's gone now, too. Personally, it was very disappointing, but debating Cordero's merits is not the point of this new thread. I'm examining why it seems the majority of Milwaukee fans is perfectly fine with letting Linebrink, and now Cordero, go.

 

 

A 12 million dollar (or... had we resigned Carlos Lee... a 25 million dollar) aging free agent who takes up a huge portion of the available salary just isn't a smart fiscal decision.

 

Now, if Coco were 27, it may be a different story.

 

70 innings a year isn't worth $12m (on this team), no matter who is pitching it.

[valpocrewsader]

Sometimes I wish this franchise would just move out of Milwaukee rather than the constant pretending that we're MLB-caliber.

 

Yeah, how dare we barely miss out on winning the division last year in the last week of the season?

 

We won 83 games in a terrible division, is that really something to be proud of? 14 other teams in MLB had the same or better record -- against better opponents in many cases. Big whoop. And we did it via a masterplan of getting lucky with kids performing. Geno's right about Doug mostly making moves that require no financial risk -- sets him up to either look like a genius or to look handcuffed, but never foolish or wrong ... there's something to be said for that, but there's a very real chance that it never puts us over the hump, either.

 

And I don't consider Hart to be Lee's replacement. Lee wouldn't have been better in LF than a mis-handled Mench/Jenkins "platoon"? Lee in LF in 2008 wouldn't make us scary dominant?

[valpocrewsader]

Now, if Coco were 27, it may be a different story.

 

The thing about this argument .... if he were younger, he'd be even more desirable and be even more expensive and we'd still be out of the running in the end. Not to go off-topic, but the same type of argument was being brought up about the free agent relievers that Doug was rumoured to be targetting: Dotel, Percival, Riske, etc. "They have injury risk, they're on the wrong side of 30, I'd be all over Player X if he were younger and not coming off injury, etc..." But it's those very defects that make the players doable for the Brewers considering how we (don't) spend.

[PeaveyFury]

And I don't consider Hart to be Lee's replacement.

 

So Jenkins, who played in the same OF as Lee, is somehow his replacement? And Corey Hart, who WASN'T in the same OF with Lee and took over one of the open spots in the OF somehow isn't? Ok.....

 

But if you want to play that game:

 

Mench/Jenkins: 29 HR, 101 RBI 84 Runs, 184 hits, 44 2B, 5 3B

 

Lee: 32 HR, 119 RBI, 93 runs, 190 hits, 43 2B, 1 3B

[lukevan]

I think he's saying that Lee could've been re-signed and Jenkins traded, thus leaving Lee/Hall/Hart for 07, though the stats show that the platoon was actually quite comparable to Lee's production.

 

Of course we wouldn't have had Cordero either.

[endaround]

And you would have had Lee's "defense"

[Raw Biz]

There is simply no way to resign every "star" that the Brewers have. They don't have the money to do so. Instead, we trade them away or let them walk. You might call this stupid and that we will never be able to compete by doing so. But take a look at the Oakland A's. Giambi, Hudson, Mulder, Zito, etc. were all "stars" and they were traded or not re-signed. Oakland just didn't have the money to be able to keep them but they still are able to compete every year.

We are a smaller market and though we've increased our payroll a bit, we still have to be careful with how we spend our money. We can't spend 10+ mil on every position, we just don't have the resources. As far as re-signing Lee, look at what his replacement did (I don't care if you call it Corey Hart or the platoon). Both had pretty solid seasons for a fraction of what Lee would've cost. And by trading Lee, we were able to get Cordero and part of the platoon. Cordero was important last year for sure but again, you can't spend 1/7 of your payroll on a guy who plays 1 out of every 18 or so innings. It's just not smart financially. Sure a Riske or in-house closer might not save as many games as Cordero but he'll come pretty darn close and at a fraction of the cost.

[qrk10000]

and yet we'll still probably not capitalize on it in the end due to letting guys like Lee and Cordero go while replacing them with no name

 

Go take a look at Carlos Lee's 2007 stats, then take a good look at what his "no name" replacement Corey Hart put up last year as well.

Corey Hart plays right field while Carlos Lee is a left fielder. If you compare our left fielder's numbers in 2007 to Carlos Lee's, it is a different story. Lee had a very solid 2007 season while playing on a bad team. I know that they moved Jenkins to right to make room for Hart, but I still don't consider him his replacement. I don't think that I would have paid Carlos what Houston did, but it is kind of ironic that we are looking for a left fielder now with a decent OBP and low strikeout totals. If we take on Scott Rolen, his contract is not that far off from Lee's and it probably will not improve the defense in left field (since Braun will be playing there and it would be expected that he would struggle in his first year in the outfield) from what Lee did there either (his numbers last season in terms of fielding percentage and range factor were not bad). I think Rolen could be a lot riskier than Lee considering the kind of year he is coming off of and the injuries he has sustained. His track record has not been good over the past three seasons. I just find it a bit hypocritical if the Brewers bring in a guy like Rolen but let others go due to financial reasons or that Lee could be a risk down the road.

 

I actually agree with a lot of what you wrote, Geno, and I am concerned about what might happen in 3-4 years when our young stars start leaving. If the Brewers pony up and retain at least 2-3 of them, I think that I and a lot of fans will be able to live with that. However, if they all are allowed to walk away, I think we will be seriously damaging our fan base. Attendance has been great the past few seasons and this is definitely the time to capitalize on our fans' excitement. It would be in the Brewers best interest to take advantage of the situation that they are in now (great offensive core, starting pitching depth) and spend more than usual to fill the other holes in order to win in 2008. That might not be the best solution for the long term, but even a first-round-and-out playoff appearance could mean millions to this franchise and show a lot to their fans that they are serious about being a real contender from there on out.

 

As always, I will withhold judgement until spring training because a lot can (and probably will) happen between now and then. I trust that Melvin and company are just blowing smoke in their comments about being comfortable with Derrick Turnbow as their closer in 2008. I cannot fathom that they are serious about that.

[qrk10000]

Riske+ 2 draft picks > Linebrink

 

now, argue that Inman, Thatcher, Garrison> than both if you will...

 

but i don't think you can really complain about riske and picks over linebrink

I agree Pogo, but are 2 draft picks better than Riske AND Linebrink? That is the problem that I have with letting him walk away.

[Raw Biz]

If we re-signed Linebrink, I don't think we would sign Riske. In those terms Riske = Linebrink but add in the draft picks then Riske + 2 picks is > Linebrink.