billy hall debate

[endaround]

If Hall goes to 3B, Hart would be the starting Cfer.

[sbrylski]

If Hall goes to 3B, Hart would be the starting Cfer.

I hear this a lot, but I does the organization have confidence in Hart in CF? Melvin said last offseason he wanted Hall to play LF, if possible. Why didn't he put Hart in CF then? I don't know if they consider him a long term CF option.

[endaround]

Hart did start to play CF at times at the end of the year. Keep in mind Yost had something against Hart for some reason and looked for reasons to keep him off the field.

[dadofandrew]

Heh. Hart played almost all the time last year, except when he was injured early on in the season.

[Invader3K]

I don't think "Yost had something against Hart." I mean, he did have over 500 ABs, so it's not like he was riding the bench frequently.

 

I really would love to see Hart become the starting CF, with Braun moving to LF and Hall back to 3B, barring some major acquistion. Hart looked pretty solid in center field this past season, when he was starting there. Then again, if Scott Rolen does indeed become a Brewer, a Braun/Hart/Hall OF wouldn't exactly be horrible.

 

I do think Hall's on the field defensive struggles affected his performance with the bat. I realize a player isn't wearing his glove in the batter's box...but let's face it, Hall is still relatively young, and human. I think there has to be at least some correlation. Yes, he improved defensively over the course of the season, but I can't say he ever looked completely comfortable out there. I think the organization has been taking a "square peg in a round hole" approach with him for the most part.

[hauser42]

Bill Hall is an average player no matter what spot he plays in the field. At 2B, SS, and CF he is below average with his defense but above average with his bat. He has very little instincts at these spots, and turning the double play ball he struggles at. He might be average at 3B with his defense, but his bat is below average.

I have said before he has a huge fan base because he gets a lot of sport center plays because his one hit for the game is a game winning homer or late innning hit that drives in a run. He will go 1/4 but people only see that one hit and not the 2 Ks and a pop up for an easy out.

Hall needs to stay on the team and play CF if Rolen comes aboard. Brewer OF defense may not be great but with all the bats they will have the lineup will be better than last year.

I do agree that Hart doens't seem to be a long term answer in CF also.

[sweepscc]

Bill Hall is

A home run threat

Team guy

Not a problem in the dougout

Doesn't go to the newspaper guys a spread MEism's

Take's care of his mom

Respects the fan's

Give's 110%

Good Glove....Not great

 

Bill Hall is exactly what Milwaukee appreciates....good solid effort.....He will have an outstanding year because he works at getting better.

A symptom of not winning a pennant in decades. Marginal players we worship. I thought we should have traded him last off season. We probably could have gotten Milledge and a reliever for him or something to that effect. Melvin's missed on a couple guys he could have traded at peak value. Now he's just an average to below average centerfielder instead of a stud SS trading piece.

[Invader3K]

sweepscc hits a bit of an interesting point...even the most marginal of Milwaukee Brewers seem to have vocal fan bases. I mean, just in recent years, there have been comments like "I thought we should have kept him" for the likes of Russel Branyan, Brady Clark, Scott Podsednik, etc.

[endaround]

I don't think "Yost had something against Hart." I mean, he did have over 500 ABs, so it's not like he was riding the bench frequently.

 

I really would love to see Hart become the starting CF, with Braun moving to LF and Hall back to 3B, barring some major acquistion. Hart looked pretty solid in center field this past season, when he was starting there. Then again, if Scott Rolen does indeed become a Brewer, a Braun/Hart/Hall OF wouldn't exactly be horrible.

 

I do think Hall's on the field defensive struggles affected his performance with the bat. I realize a player isn't wearing his glove in the batter's box...but let's face it, Hall is still relatively young, and human. I think there has to be at least some correlation. Yes, he improved defensively over the course of the season, but I can't say he ever looked completely comfortable out there. I think the organization has been taking a "square peg in a round hole" approach with him for the most part.

1) Hart was sitting on the bench in 2006

2) Mark A confronted Yost about palying Mench ahead of Hart in April. As much as Al likes to deny it, Hart was healthy to start the season and Yost kept putting Mench in the lineup.

 

[Trowekamp]

I don't think "Yost had something against Hart." I mean, he did have over 500 ABs, so it's not like he was riding the bench frequently.

 

I really would love to see Hart become the starting CF, with Braun moving to LF and Hall back to 3B, barring some major acquistion. Hart looked pretty solid in center field this past season, when he was starting there. Then again, if Scott Rolen does indeed become a Brewer, a Braun/Hart/Hall OF wouldn't exactly be horrible.

 

I do think Hall's on the field defensive struggles affected his performance with the bat. I realize a player isn't wearing his glove in the batter's box...but let's face it, Hall is still relatively young, and human. I think there has to be at least some correlation. Yes, he improved defensively over the course of the season, but I can't say he ever looked completely comfortable out there. I think the organization has been taking a "square peg in a round hole" approach with him for the most part.

I think Hall can be an average 3B, Braun can be an above average LF or RF and Hart can be a Gold Glove CF as well as hit .300 and have a 30/30 year.

 

I think they should make these moves and let Gwynn, Nix, Gross, Dillon battle it out for playing time in RF. Who knows Gillepsie may make the jump this year and be up in the second half. I just don't see any good options out there that would be worth the investment unless you were able to dump Vargas on somebody.

 

I wouldn't trade Capuano when his value is rock bottom and wouldn't trade Bush because he is an innings eater that can start or relieve. I would give Parra a shot at closing ala Papelborn and would dump Suppan's contract if I could but I am fine with it.

 

[Big Reed]

terrace reserved. I have a question about your stats for Hall. Were they from last year? 2006? or 2005? career? You stated he had a +18 plays which made him the third best shortstop in both leagues last year. You said last year, not in 2006. Did you mean 2006? Last year, Hall played CF, not shortstop. So how did his +18 plays compare with other centerfielders? Are you trying to use stats generated by Hall as an outfielder, and then say because he used to play shortstop, those stats should be considered for him as a shortstop? Well, I'd love to use AROD's stats and then consider him at shortstop. You can't use stats produced by a player at one position and then use those stats and try to compare him to players at a different position for that year or for a career. What would you do with guys like Edgar Martinez and Molitor? Hall's stats from last year need to be compared against other outfielders, not shortstops. Otherwise, we'd have people saying Barry Bonds, Ernie Banks and Gary Sheffield were the greatest shortstops ever because they all played shortstop at one time.

 

I asked a very candid and knowingly unpopular question. if Hall was such a great shortstop in 2006, why was it him who was moved to the outfield and braun, Weeks and hardy allowed to remain in the infield? Nobody really answered that question. Hall is not really that much older than the other three infielders, yet it is Hardy and Weeks who are always advertised as our long term solutions at second and short. Are they that much better than Hall defensively? if the answer is yes, then it agrees with my theory that hall was moved to the outfield for the simple reason that the brewers wanted to find a way to keep his bat in the line-up. Simply stated, the brewers like his bat, not his glove. Hart is currently as good as a Cf as Hall will ever be.

 

I will agree that Bowa was perhaps not the greatest defensive shortstop. he did have some good years. I do have heartburns with people who downplay the stats from players who played in different eras and the difficiency of stats from those eras. I also have heartburns with people who believe a player should be measured by his OPS, and if it's not above 900, he's just not a great player. I chose Belanger and Aparicio for a reason. Belanger had a reputation as being one of the best fielding shortstops in the game during his era. Aparicio is considered one of the best shortstops of all time and is a hall of Famer despite his horrid OPS stats. I didn't vote Aparicio into the hall of fame. His peers, GMs, owners, sportscasters and baseball historians did. While his stats may not look gaudy, those who saw him play and those who played against him knew how great of a player he actually was. If baseball was based purely on stats, the Cubs would have won the 1969 world series in 4 games. Don Money would hold 5 gold gloves and Bill James would be richer than Bill Gates.

 

I have to believe Ned Yost and Melvin both know a lot more about baseball than I do. I also have to believe they were doing their best to win a division championship last year. With that said, I have to believe Yost played the line-up down the stretch that he felt would give the brewers their best chance of winning. I also believe Hall was healthy last September. There are some parts of a box score that can not be interpreted into stats. if Ned was trying to win games and field his best possible line-up, why did he platoon Hall when it counted most? When the division crown was on the line, Hall was watching more than he was playing. Did anybody ever ask Ned why he was platooning hall? What was his answer? Box scores don't lie. GMs do.

 

Hall is not a great infielder or great shortstop. Hall can hit. He's an above average hitting outfielder. he's a below average fielding CF. He has a relatively low salary. He's a good value. I would have a lot higher opinion of Hall if he had not been relegated to platoon status last September when the division crown was on the line. When I saw that Ned was platooning Hall with guys named Gross and Gwynn, I threw out all my memories of Hall's 2006 season and hopes of him being a potenial great player. Potential great players don't platoon with guys named mench, gross and gwynn. Potential great players play every day when the season is on the line. At the end of last year, the Brewers were winning games without Hall.

[Baldkin]

Reed-

random, convoluted response here... but...

First things, to compare players across eras, use OPS+. Its designed for that, and does a pretty good job of showing who the haves and have nots were across different times.

 

Secondly, Hall wasn't the only one platooning with Gross. There was also Corey Hart who was platooning with Gwynn and Mench and Gross early in the season. That whole "potentially great" thing doesn't hold much water. When a guy is hurt, he can't play all that much. Rickie Weeks was platooning with Craig Counsell for awhile!

 

Hall may have been healthy, but his swing was not. Playing for 6 weeks on a leg you can't plant on when you swing will do that to you, the same way that having a strained wrist will not let you swing right (Hart), or having surgery on a tendon causes you to not swing right(Weeks). All 3 of those things happened to players on the Brewers last year. 1 got platooned early in the year. 1 got sent down to the minors to get his swing straightened out, and the 3rd is Bill Hall. He got rushed back and put back into the lineup 6 weeks too early, and his swing never got a chance to recover.

 

Ned very... very rarely answers any questions about strategic decisions he makes and I haven't found if he was asked about Hall platooning.

 

Personally, I was baffled when the brain trust moved Hall to the OF. I was sure it would've been Weeks, as he played CF in college. Hardy has been the SS of the future for quite awhile. As for Braun, the staff moved him from SS to 3B, thinking the transition would be fairly easy for him (I mean, ARod and Ripken did it, how hard can it be?)

 

If you don't think Hall could play 3B better than Braun did last year... well.. I don't know what to tell you.

 

Clearly, the brain trust thought that Hall was the best choice to make the move to the OF. Why that was? Maybe he works a little harder than the other guys. Maybe its from the experience he had out there in the spring of '06? I can't say. This year will be telling, to see if he can handle it. If he can be Bill *clap, clap* *clap, clap* Hall again

 

Anyway.

 

To answer the original question, why do people worship Bill Hall?

 

My reasons:

In 2005, he did everything the coaching staff asked of him. Played 3 different positions, and paved the way for the new group of youngsters. In 2006, he started off, without complaining, by playing every position on the infield, and even a couple games in CF. Then JJ got hurt, and he proceeded to lead the team in HR, and 2B and SLG while playing a darn good SS. Oh, he also hit that incredibly memorable HR on Mother's Day.

 

 

[logan82]

As for Braun, the staff moved him from SS to 3B, thinking the transition would be fairly easy for him

By staff I am assuming you mean the staff at Miami since he was moved to 3B in college.

[dadofandrew]

Hart had 500+ AB's despite missing a lot of time in late April/early May with a wrist injury...for a few weeks, he only PH and played versus LHP so it could heal. He finally admitted to this in a late season article about Weeks, though the team never mentioned it. Many jumped up and down that he was fine, but common sense told us otherwise. He returned to the lineup after that and played almost every day for 4+ months.

[Fatter than Joey]

I asked a very candid and knowingly unpopular question. if Hall was such a great shortstop in 2006, why was it him who was moved to the outfield and braun, Weeks and hardy allowed to remain in the infield?

 

It's a good question -- I suspect that the reasons are as follows:

 

1.) While Hardy may or may not be better at SS than Hall, Hardy is a serviceable SS.

2.) Weeks is a poor 2b, and while Hall would probably have been a better choice for 2b, Weeks was coming off a season ending injury in 2006. If he starts 2006 in CF and tweaks his wrist you have a huge hole.

3.) Braun was hurt in ST, and wasn't going to make the team. Now, if he had broke camp, it would have been more likely he would have been a corner OF and not CF.

4.) The Brewers had Graffy and Counsell who could play all IF positions between the 2 of them.

5.) Koskie, may have come back at some point.

 

What is different in 2008

 

1.) We know Braun is historically bad at 3b.

2.) We know Jenks is not in LF anymore, (Braun could be moved to LF)

3.) Graffy is out for awhile, and Koskie is not coming back -- so we don't have that IF depth.

 

I have to believe Ned Yost and Melvin both know a lot more about baseball than I do.

 

This may or may not be true -- however this sort of argument cannot be used to indicate that the right moves were made.