billy hall debate

[theavrock]

Bill Hall *is* something special if used as a SS or 2B like he should be. He's also a fine, more-than-just-servicable solution at 3B. He has no business being in the outfield and is pretty much a total joke out there. His centerfield defense seriously makes me want to kick and scream and punch walls....

 

Id have to disagree. Even if you put his numbers in between 2006 and 2007 (which most here suggest will be pretty standard for him). A .280 BA (14th out of 27), an ops of .800 (7th out of 27), an OBP of .340 (15th out of 27) and 100 K's (7th most out of 27), 35 2b's (12th out of 27) woud rank pretty much in the middle, with his OPS being in the top half and his K's also being quite high for his position. He has a strength in that he posts good OPS for a SS, but also strikes out a lot. Everything else is pretty uch average.

[TwinsBrewersWorldSeries]

I think going back to a "Super Sub" role would take alot of pressure off Billy, and he's have less of an ego. He's a fine player, but i just don't think his bat warrants being a "full time Centerfielder". His stats would be very good if he was playing 2B, but he really struggled last year and hurt our lineup.

 

If I were Yost (and we got Rolen), the simple solution would be to play Hall at 3B once a week, at SS once a week in CF 2-3 times a week, and let Gross have the other 2-3 starts a week in CF.

 

Hall is a MAJOR upgrade over Counsell, but is NOT better than Hardy, Braun, Hart, (or if we get him, Rolen).

 

Again, as many have said, he has HUGE value as a "Super sub" but he is a mediocre outfielder

[endaround]

But he is better than Gross/Mench who are the ones who would be replacing him.

 

And CFers hit the same as 2b.

[Baldkin]

Hall gotten his swing back, had CF down much better and had a monster June before he got hurt.

 

Then he played the entire second half of the season on a plant leg he couldn't plant on due to rushing back from his ankle injury.

[sbrylski]

Well, who's the real Bill Hall?

 

.837? .898? .740?

 

I see one that does fit with the other two, and can be explained to an extent by the injury's effect.

 

.809 - .783 - .899 - .706

 

Who's this guy? Defense aside, he's regarded as one of the better hitting CFers. That's the last four seasons OPS for Vernon Wells.

 

I think Hall will be fine.

[valpocrewsader]

Frankly, I think it's a total myth that Hall's defense looked good by the end of the year or got progressively better as the year went along. He might have gotten a skosh better between early April and early May, but from May on out into September it was the same embarassing circus show. I'm confident that 2008 will be the same unfortunate Scotty Smalls carnival ... with me again pulling my hair out and hurting puppies all the while.

[dadofandrew]

Everyone acts as if a career 800 hitter will have 4 years of 790, 785, 810, and 815. Guys have ups and downs, and giving up on them after a down campaign is just foolish. Hall was less than 100% through much of the year, and also had to change positions. That's pretty much a recipe for a down year. You can probably expect a return to form for Estrada as well.

 

And i agree, I think his defense was fine after the very early part of the year.

[twobrewers]

He might have gotten a skosh better between early April and early May, but from May on out into September it was the same embarassing circus show

I will give props for using the word skosh.

 

But my eyes disagree with you. I am not at all a defense stat guy however. Is anyone able to break down Bill's defensive play by month into numbers at all to show improvement?

[logan82]

I don't think he is a top of the order hitter in our lineup, but if he is the type of hitter we have in the 6th-8th spots I would say we have a pretty strong lineup. I don't think he is an all star or MVP either like people were saying last offseason.

[bjkrautk]

My concern with Hall has been, and always will be, OBP. When everything is right with the guy, he slugs well enough to make up for the deficiencies. He has some deficiencies throwing the ball in CF (trying to make an out instead of just getting the ball to the infield), but his angles and range greatly improved during his first year in CF and should continue to improve in future years. Because of his OBP deficiencies, he's always going to be a "boom or bust" type player. In a twisted way, that's the reason so many on the forum like Hall: because he has come up big in critical situations.

 

So long as Hall's '07 was an offensive abberation, I don't have a problem with him in CF. Even if he does continue to struggle with OBP, his production (relative to position) is far more forgivable than it would be at third. I'd only really want to trade him if it meant getting a middle-of-the-rotation starter, a power-arm future closer (like Rafael Soriano), or an MLB-ready catching prospect (although Shoppach's still not available).

 

Going forward, it may be hard to commit a large contract to a sub-.360 OBP player, but that's a problem for another day.

[Big Reed]

Hall was a fantastic fantasy shortstop in 2006. he put up trememdous fantasy stats. yet, he didn't carry the team on his back and lead us to a divison crown. For that matter, neither did Fielder. Many people here say how great of an infielder Hall was . Was that because of his fantasy stats? or did he actually look like Larry Bowa and Aparicio in the field? If Hall was such a great third baseman, why did the brewers go out and acquire Koskie? because the Blue Jays gave him to us at half price? Why did the brewers even have an interest in koskie? obviously, it was because of his fielding ability. if Hall was such a great shortstop, why was it he who was the player shifted to CF instead of Hardy or Weeks? Did the brewers' brain trust believe of the three players, Hall could learn to be the best CF? or was it because Hardy and Weeks are thought of as the long term solutions at second and shortstop? And last year, when the brewers had an overabundance of outfielders, and injuries to key infielders, why did the brewers brain trust turn to Graffy and Cousell to fill the void rather than bringing Hall back to the infield? I think the fact the brewers used Counsell and graffy as fill ins instead of Hall speaks volumes for their lack of confidence in Hall as an infielder. And now we have braun saying he's willing to move to the outfield if the brewers acquire a third baseman. And even as bad as braun is defensively at third, there is zero talk of moving Braun to the outfield and being replaced by Hall. The brewers must believe braun's lousy defense at third is better than having hall play third.

 

hall gets a lot of credit from brewer fans for his supposed ability to play multiple infield and outfield positions. yet when injuries occured, they looked for somebody else to fill those holes. Hall could have filled in for Weeks with hart or gwynn at center. but the brewers refused to go that route. What does that say about hall's infield ability? and if Hall isn't really wanted by the brewers to play infield knowing how bad the brewers' infield defense was last year, what other team is going to want him to play infield for them? I think hall's value as an infielder is a lot lower than most fans want to believe.

 

hall is an average CF. his power numberrs may increase over last year. I doubt his defense will ever be spectacular at ant position. his salary demands are rather low compared to what other outfielders are being paid these days. he's a good value for the money. But he is not an all star.

 

for those that loved him as a shortstop, what did you love about him in 2006? his fantasy stats? I'll take a Bowa, Belanger and an Aparicio any day over a guy that puts up a great OPS.

 

hall is an average outfielder. he is no longer an infielder.

[sbrylski]

I think you're reading the wrong signals on the position move.

 

The organization thought Hardy > Hall defensively. So Hall moves to 3B. Hall was coming off an excellent half season, but had zero track record, so when Koskie became available we jumped on the inexpensive proven guy.

 

Hardy comes back after Hall's big "prove its not a fluke" year. Braun is nearly ready, Koskie's situation is up in the air, and we have a hole in CF. Weeks is rooted at 2B, and Graffy can cover 3B for a while. Therefore, Hall goes to CF. I think this says more about them feeling it was important to have his bat in the lineup everyday. With learning the new position visibly tough, they didn't want him worrying about any other position so they didn't play him anywhere else.

 

Why wouldn't they move Hall back to 3B and Braun to LF? I'll guess they don't quite view Hall as a long term solution at 3B. Melvin has stated his first choice is to leave Braun at 3rd, unless we find a proven professional player for 3B. Especially after a down season, I think they have cause to leave the two where they are.

 

I think all of this says zero about their confidence in Hall's IF defense. It might actually say more about their confidence in Hart or Gross's CF defense.

[splitterpfj]

3-year averages

 

76 Runs, 38 doubles, 3 triples, 22 home runs, 70 RBI, 10 SB, .272 AVE, .832 OPS

 

Due to his super-sub role, and then his injury in 07, Hall has averaged just under 500 ABs during this time.

 

I'd bet against the 10 steals for this season, but I see no reason why he won't at least match the rest of those numbers. I think the comparison to Jenkins is accurate, he's a party when he's hot, he Ks on pitches nowhere near the plate when he isn't.

 

If he hits 6th, and gets about 550 ABs, I could see 25 HR, 90 RBI. This is not Fielder or Braun, but it is a very useful player.

[twobrewers]

I'd bet against the 10 steals for this season, but I see no reason why he won't at least match the rest of those numbers.

While being a Hall fan, that is one of the things that bugs me. How is he such an awful base stealer?

 

Didn't he have the fastest 60m time on the team?

 

While I am at it, how is Rickie weeks so bad at bunting? That would be of tremendous use if he goes into a long slump again.

 

Ok, vent done.

[logan82]

I'd bet against the 10 steals for this season, but I see no reason why he won't at least match the rest of those numbers. I think the comparison to Jenkins is accurate, he's a party when he's hot, he Ks on pitches nowhere near the plate when he isn't.

I also can't believe that he is such a bad base stealer. I would rather see Fielder try to steal a base before Hall. I thought Hall would be a Weeks type all around player, but he is going more then Jenkins route.

[Ashford Lando]

He looked better in CF as the year went on so it wouldn't surprise me if he was better out there this season. I like Hardy at SS more than Hall though, Hall really struggles on decision making and turning double plays and just does not look natural at SS to me.

 

Agreed. While I feel we saw improvement with Hall in CF, I am not yet sold -- however, the window of opportunity given has been small. I think injuries from last year held him back and is worth one more look. I'd agree it just didn't seem he was comfortable enough to be an everyday IF -- considering the fact we have JJ. I am completely open to moving Hall again (LF?) but think he will be clutch in 08.

[TerraceReserved]

Big Reed, to put it lightly, I disagree very strongly about everything you just said. I didn't see a shred of accuracy in your analysis.

Hall was a fantastic fantasy shortstop in 2006. he put up trememdous fantasy stats. yet, he didn't carry the team on his back and lead us to a divison crown.

Any one player can have an incredible season, but the enitre team needs to play well to win a division crown. You can't measure a players worth by his teams successes.

Many people here say how great of an infielder Hall was . Was that because of his fantasy stats?

Huh? Why in the world would ever look at fantasy stats to judge a player defensively? People thought he was a good infielder, because well, he was. Going by John Dewans plus/minus system, last year Hall was +18 plays, the third best shortstop in both leauges.

if Hall was such a great shortstop, why was it he who was the player shifted to CF instead of Hardy or Weeks?

Becuase Weeks and Hardy were pretty cemented in their positions and long term solutions, while Hall was a super utility kind of guy. Hall is a better fielder than both of them, but the choice was for Melvin and co.

think the fact the brewers used Counsell and graffy as fill ins instead of Hall speaks volumes for their lack of confidence in Hall as an infielder

Hall was already playing everyday in the outfield, and Melvin stated he didn't want to keep juggling Hall around on the field. Plus we already had one platoon going in left, and to play Gwynn full time would have been very bad.

And even as bad as braun is defensively at third, there is zero talk of moving Braun to the outfield and being replaced by Hall. The brewers must believe braun's lousy defense at third is better than having hall play third.

???? Brauns lousy defense at thrid is better than having Hall play there? Every single defensive metric out there states that this is completly incorrect. Braun was -41 plays at third, while Hall was +18 at short! If Hall plays similar defense at third, thats nearly a 60 play difference, and oogles of runs. I think Melvin isn't considering this near enough as he should be.

hall gets a lot of credit from brewer fans for his supposed ability to play multiple infield and outfield positions. yet when injuries occured, they looked for somebody else to fill those holes.

Umm, no they didn't. In 06, he filled all the holes in the infield, and in 07 he was playing CF the entire year, where Melvin stated he would stay.

for those that loved him as a shortstop, what did you love about him in 2006? his fantasy stats? I'll take a Bowa, Belanger and an Aparicio any day over a guy that puts up a great OPS.

Again with fantasy stats. If you just looked at those you'd have no idea how good a player was. People like him in 06 becuase he played above average D and had an OPS+ of 125. In 05 he had an OPS+ of 116.

But seriously, Bowa, Belanger, and Aparicio? They had OPS+ of 71, 68, and 82. And for a defensive metric, all thats available is FRAA, flawed as it is, here are there stats. -99 runs for Bowa at short, Belanger was +80 over 18 seasons, and Aparicio was +60 runs at short. Knowing that Hall actually is a very good fielding infielder and an above average bat, I'll take Hall anyday.

Edit: There's so little accuracy in those defensive numbers from BP its tough to put much weight on them, but thats all there was. But they could all be fantastic fielders and I'd still take Hall every day of the week.

[bjkrautk]

3-year averages

 

76 Runs, 38 doubles, 3 triples, 22 home runs, 70 RBI, 10 SB, .272 AVE, .832 OPS

 

Due to his super-sub role, and then his injury in 07, Hall has averaged just under 500 ABs during this time.

 

I'd bet against the 10 steals for this season, but I see no reason why he won't at least match the rest of those numbers. I think the comparison to Jenkins is accurate, he's a party when he's hot, he Ks on pitches nowhere near the plate when he isn't.

 

If he hits 6th, and gets about 550 ABs, I could see 25 HR, 90 RBI. This is not Fielder or Braun, but it is a very useful player.

 

 

I don't disagree with the part about Hall projecting right around the average of his past 3 seasons. I just don't think that the Jenkins comparison is fair...to Geoff.

Jenkins' career OBP (.347) is higher than Hall's peak OBP (.345). Geoff might have been more slump-prone, but he knew how to draw a walk. OTOH, Hall's career P/PA (4.00) is higher than Jenkins' best year (3.98)....that's probably the biggest reason that Hall is staying, and Jenkins is leaving.

[JJHardy7]

If I were Yost (and we got Rolen), the simple solution would be to play Hall at 3B once a week, at SS once a week in CF 2-3 times a week, and let Gross have the other 2-3 starts a week in CF.

 

I don't believe there are many players who would have this type of rotation. I think rotating a guy between the infield and outfield this regularly -- during the season will not happen. How often does this even happen with anyone? I don't think playing 3 positions a week (emphasis that one is in CF) is like riding a bike. I just find it hard to believe this is realistic.

[brettac1]

But seriously, Bowa

 

I think Larry Bowa is the worst player in the history of baseball, he was awful with the glove and even worse with the bat. I don't remember which, but there was an article at either THT or BP about the worst ever, and he was either #1 or 2 (with Neifi Perez being the other), IIRC.

[TURBO]

I just do not understand the blind homerism that Bill Hall incites with the average brewer fan. Don't get me wrong, I think he is an ok guy to have around, just don't think we should build him a statue outside of Miller Park just yet.

 

I was hoping that someone here would lead me to believe that Bill Hall is as valuable as some seem to think, but that evidence has yet to be shown.

 

He is severely over-rated by the average brewer fan, and I want to know what it is that makes him so valuable around the league and with the brewers.

 

If he is such a slick IFer, 3B in particular, why isn't he our 3B going into this season?

 

If he is better than 20 other starting SS in MLB, then there must be 20 teams willing to deal for him right? I mean, if I am one of those 20 teams that do not have a better SS than Bill Hall on their roster, I'd be inquiring as to how I can get in on some Bill Hall for my squad. If he is being shopped, discussed, whatever in trade circles, and he is such a damn bargain, I'd have contacted Melvin by now so I could aquire such a load of talent named Bill Hall.

 

Attempting to turn him into a good CFer is a laugh to me, use him as the super-sub that he is suited for, god knows, we will have injuries. Use him to sub at 3B for Braun in the later innings. (I freaking hate that, but that is another thread to start, Yost is an idiot!!!) We surely need to give at least one starting infielder a day off every frickin' day of the season right? Have Billy play daily in that roll if he is such a wonderful infielder. I mean, I'd hate to have our infielders play every day, in fact, maybe he can just platoon with someone, Yost loves the platoon idea so much, maybe he can get super-stud Billy Hall into a platoon situation...

 

I'm just frustrated with the love of this guy, it is too much imo.

[sbrylski]

Turbo, nobody is worshipping him. He's just not worthless, that's all.

 

He's an okay IF defender and a suspect OF defender with at least some potential to improve. Though he has some flaws, he has a decent bat that nobody should be ashamed to have in their lineup. He's better than a bench player, but not quite a star. I think just about everyone would agree with the above.

 

If he is better than 20 other starting SS in MLB, then there must be 20 teams willing to deal for him right? I mean, if I am one of those 20 teams that do not have a better SS than Bill Hall on their roster, I'd be inquiring as to how I can get in on some Bill Hall for my squad. If he is being shopped, discussed, whatever in trade circles, and he is such a damn bargain, I'd have contacted Melvin by now so I could aquire such a load of talent named Bill Hall.

 

I hear a lot of rumors about Bill Hall being targets for other clubs. I'm not sure he's better than 20 other starters, but he'd be an improvement for other teams.

[danzig6767]

Bill Hall is an above average baseball player signed to a team friendly contract given the increase in salaries.

 

That's an asset for any baseball team and why nearly every team in baseball would glad to have him

[Bert55]

Bill Hall is

A home run threat

Team guy

Not a problem in the dougout

Doesn't go to the newspaper guys a spread MEism's

Take's care of his mom

Respects the fan's

Give's 110%

Good Glove....Not great

 

Bill Hall is exactly what Milwaukee appreciates....good solid effort.....He will have an outstanding year because he works at getting better.

[lukevan]

If he is such a slick IFer, 3B in particular, why isn't he our 3B going into this season?

 

Because we have Ryan Braun.

 

Also if we move Braun to LF and Hall back to 3B without an acquisition of a CF, we're looking at Gwynn as our starting CF. It's easier to get a solid bat at 3B and LF than CF, so it just makes sense.

 

I guess you can call him overrated, but it doesn't really matter how he is perceived. The basic fact is he is a plus hitter for a CF and should be around average defensively this season.

 

Trading him for pitching would create a hole and we'd likely have to spend $15 mil per year (someone like Andruw Jones or Rowand, if they'd even consider an offer from the Crew) in order to get (arguably) better production in CF than what Hall will likely give us. I just don't see this as a debate.