Hall of Fame ballot announced

[sveumrules]

there is definitely a difference, splitter, i just don't think it's as big as many people perceive it to be.

 

it's a foregone conclusion that rickey is first ballot, but the rock is gonna have to wait a lot longer than he deserves to get in the hall, if ever.

 

if you wanna look at defense as well a quick check at b-r.com shows raines with a 988 to 980 career edge in fielding percentage, plus 15 more assists in over 200 less games.

[Tbadder]

I say no to Raines and Rice. They are what I call cut off players. If you want the HOF you've got to better them. I feel the same way toward Billy Williams who really doesn't belong at all. McGwire is also a big no to me. He's just Dave Kingman in disguise. I think it would be kind of an embarrassment to the Hall to let someone in who had the rotten years he had.

 

A big yes goes out to Blyleven and Smith. I mean how much does a reliever have to do if you're Smith? And Bert was so good for so long.

 

Gossage probably deserves it--although i think there should be a permanent ban on Yankees. Dawson is a tough call, but I'd keep him out. He's another "cut-off" player in my book.

 

And that leads me to my biggest gripe about the Hall--there's just too many players in there. I think every year they need to take out a few. I mean, it's getting ridiculous. I'm serious. It's overloaded. Have a nice ceremony, make the families feel good, etc.--but jettison the riff raff that doesn't belong, Sunny Jim Bottomley (sic)? Enos Slaughter? You gotta be kidding me.

[radman12484]

Honestly looking at some of these guys careers and I wonder why are they on this list?

 

The only guys I would consider voting for are:

Bert Blyleven

Dave Cocepcion

Andre Dawson

Don Mattingly

Mark McGwire

Alan Trammell

 

I like the things they've done in there careers.

[dvoiss]

Blyleven & Dawson. I loved Harold Baines as a hitter but his numbess just don't do it for me.

[LouisEly]

If Dawson and Rice had switched teams (Dawson played for Boston and Rice played for Montreal), Dawson would be in already and Rice would be nowhere near. Take away the turf and pitchers park in Olympic Stadium and let Dawson play pepper with the Green Monster and his numbers would be even better. Plus Dawson played almost his entire career in the NL and only 171 games as a DH, whereas Rice played 530 games as a DH.

 

ROY - Dawson yes, Rice 2nd

MVP - Dawson 1, Rice 1; Dawson two #2s, Rice two #3s, two #4s, and a #5

All-Star - Dawson 8, Rice 8

Top 10 in SLG - Dawson 8, Rice 8

Top 10 in OPS - Dawson 8, Rice 8

Silver Slugger - Dawson 4, Rice 2

Gold Glove - Dawson 8, Rice 0

 

Almost identical except for Gold Gloves; Rice w/slightly higher BA and OBP (would have been lower if he played as long as Dawson), Dawson far superior in steals and lower K rate. Given the similarities in offensive production, I give the nod to Dawson by being the better defender. To me, he gets in before Rice does. If Rice gets in but Dawson doesn't, I'll have a conniption.

 

Yes - Blyleven, Dawson, Gossage; eventually McGwire (especially if Bonds current situation and more players get exposed via the various scandals and pharmacy busts) but not this year.

 

Tommy John should have a special place in the Hall, but not necessarily for his playing career.

 

Raines - NO. Remember his nickname at the end of his career? "Rock" Raines? Anyone have a baseball card of his from the 90's? How did he have such a physique well over the age of 30? You don't think he was juiced? As for OBP, he was a little guy (listed as 5'8" but in reality probably shorter) with a small strike zone who squatted down to make it even smaller like Henderson did - that's how he got his walks, not necessarily by having a great eye. Hall of the Very Good - yes; Hall of Fame - no.

[LouisEly]

sveum,

 

Where do you get 15 more assists for Raines? If you look just at OF (take away his games at 2B) he has 134 career OF assists whereas Henderson has 129. Raines also has no career Gold Gloves. And there is a big difference between 1400 career steals and 800 despite what their career OBP and CS% is.

[sveumrules]

sveum,

 

Where do you get 15 more assists for Raines? If you look just at OF (take away his games at 2B) he has 134 career OF assists whereas Henderson has 129. Raines also has no career Gold Gloves. And there is a big difference between 1400 career steals and 800 despite what their career OBP and CS% is.

 

i just looked at the assist numbers listed for OF which has raines at 126 and hendu at 111. i didn't see they had lf/cf/rf listed in addition to OF. so while the numbers end up almost exactly equal, hendu also had about 700 more games in the of.

 

600 more steals is a big deal, but that's a counting stat (and an overrated one at that) and those don't matter! (blue)

and yeah, i know rock was probably roiding at the end and was definitely sniffing in the 80s (talk about a multipurpose nickname) but i just don't understand how hendu is THAT superior of a player, all things considered.

[Phenomenal Smith]

Yes to:

Blyleven, Raines, Goosage

 

Maybe to Trammell, Mattingly, and Murphy

[chadomac]

Unlike most of the other PED offenders, Big Mac's production was pretty much the same his whole career, and unlike most he was a big guy as a rookie.

He did hit a lot of homeruns his rookie year, about 50 if I recall... but I'm going to disagree on him being a "big guy as a rookie"

 

http://www.wisecamel.com/images/McGwire%20B%20and%20A%202.jpg

[pogokat]

ROY - Dawson yes, Rice 2nd

 

MVP - Dawson 1, Rice 1; Dawson two #2s, Rice two #3s, two #4s, and a #5

 

Dale Murphy 1 (twice), 7, 9

All-Star - Dawson 8, Rice 8

 

Murphy 7

 

Top 10 in SLG - Dawson 8, Rice 8

 

Murphy top 7 6 times, 1st twice

 

Top 10 in OPS - Dawson 8, Rice 8

 

top 10 6 times, 1st once, 2nd 4 times

 

Silver Slugger - Dawson 4, Rice 2

 

Murphy 4

 

Gold Glove - Dawson 8, Rice 0

 

Murphy 5

 

led league in homers - Dawson 1, Rice 3

 

Murphy 2

 

Led League in Rbi's - Dawson 1, Rice, 2

 

Murphy 2

 

 

 

Now, I'm not trying to make a case for murphy...he's my guy, so i'm always in favor of him...but i think that if you are just looking at peak performance, these guys are all very close...much closer than people seem to think, because they often exclude murphy even though his career stats are very similar to Rice's

 

the knock agaisnt all three of these guys is that they weren't worth crap after about age 34....though dawson managed to keep hitting homers even though his obp was at .300 or lower each season

[sveumrules]

more raines love from someone with fancy numbers and things...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/11/29/bp.raineshalloffame/index.html

[Baldkin]

Some more from THT:

 

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/cooperstown-needs-a-piece-of-the-rock/

[brettac1]

Both those articles are correct.

 

Raines was a great baseball player.

[igor67]

Bert definitely gets in. If you want to value loyalty and penalize a guy HOF-wise for not getting enough wins that's just silly. I think the draft perspective in an interesting one here. Assume you have the chance to draft him knowing everything about his career in advance. Is he a player you might draft as a GM over other HOFers? I think the possibility of knowing your going to just let this guy go out and pitch a couple of decades for you is pretty valuable in the world of broken down arms.

 

Raines is the second best Lead-off hitter of all time in any other era than the 80's when he overlapped Rickey he would have been a stand-out. Definitely a HOFer as well. There is no one else I feel particularly strongly about. Trammel and the relievers are probably next closest in my mind.