Why isn't there any heat on Melvin?

[Weirdos19]

I understand that all Gm's make mistakes. But here are a few moves Melvin has made that make sense.

 

He has waited th appropriate time to bring up Prince, Rickie, Hart, Braun, Gallardo, Parra, and CV. None struggled when they first got to the majors. That is huge. Their confidence didn't get ruined by struggling when they first got to the majors. To me, a vastly underrated skill for GM's. It's not all trades. There is a pressure to bring up young prospects too early.

Then did he destroy Eveland and Weeks? A GM largely uses others to help inform them when a prospect is ready.

 

 

No. Eveland may not have been ready, but he may never be. We don't know yet. Melvin put him in that trade because he wasn't high on him anymore. And, we had Cappy in the majors and Parra in AAA, so we really didn't need a 250 pound lefty.

 

Rickie was more than effective when he first came up. His wrist injury has slowed him, but he has proven when healthy, that he is a pretty darn good player. Maybe great someday. I saw alot of Rickey Henderson in him last August and September.

[TerraceReserved]

Folks, Doug Melvin has done a great job.

 

He's hired good personnel - Ned Yost has turned this team into a good one that just doesn't quit. He kept a great scouting unit he inherited from Dean Taylor, and he's been able to find folks who we've flipped for real talent, too.

 

Time to sign him to a long-term deal, if you ask me.

 

Everything else in this post seems serious, but surely this line is meant as a joke, right? I hope so....

[JJHardy7]

No. Eveland may not have been ready, but he may never be. We don't know yet. Melvin put him in that trade because he wasn't high on him anymore. And, we had Cappy in the majors and Parra in AAA, so we really didn't need a 250 pound lefty.

 

Parra's highest level at the time of the trade was AA. Given arm injuries Parra had I think banking on him at the time of the trade would be risky. He was a nice surprise in 2007. Parra made it to AAA in 2007 (after the trade). I don't think Parra had much to do (if anything) with this trade.

[Weirdos19]

Well, I'm pretty sure DM wasn't to happy with Dana after he gained all that weight. I remember that was an issue with him.

 

If he didn't think Parra would be better than Eveland, maybe they thought ZJ would be. He was starting in 2006 when Dana was in the minors.

 

Pretty sure Dougie had no plans for Eveland, anyway.

[ILuvDaBush]

The only person who shouldn't like Doug Melvin is Ben Hendrickson's dad.

[logan82]

Folks, Doug Melvin has done a great job.

 

He's hired good personnel - Ned Yost has turned this team into a good one that just doesn't quit. He kept a great scouting unit he inherited from Dean Taylor, and he's been able to find folks who we've flipped for real talent, too.

 

Time to sign him to a long-term deal, if you ask me.

You really shouldn't say the Y word. Especially if you don't follow it with an insult.

[RockCoCougars]

Dean Taylor was an utter and complete failure as a GM. He made one move that worked out on the major league level - the aquisition of Sexson. He gave away many decent major league players for garbage (Juan Acevedo, Glendon Rusch, John Snyder, Jamey Wright, Jamie Navarro, Quevedo, I could go on all day) in return. His free agent acquistions were, to be kind, horrendous (Jose Hernandez, Jeffrey Hammonds, Ritchie, etc.). I think his hand in setting up the minor league system is vastly overrated as well. Yes, he drafted Fielder, Hart, and Hardy, but he also took Jones and Krynzel with high picks. There aren't many prospects left from his drafts left outside of Parra. Worst GM in Brewers history by a long stretch - and yes, I'm counting Bando. Taylor was a buffoon.

[logan82]

Of course there is nobody left that he drafted. You can only keep players in the minors for 6 years.

[brettac1]

Taylor was definitely an idiot. However...

 

I fail to see how Jose Hernandez was such a terrible signing.

 

I don't knock him for Quevedo, he was trading a guy that was going to be an FA and they weren't going to re-sign.

 

Didn't Melvin sign Ritchie?

 

Also, I don't really credit GM's with draft picks, that's the scouting director in my opinion.

[Never Outhustled]

I don't really credit GM's with draft picks, that's the scouting director in my opinion

True. What Taylor should get credit for is hiring Jack Z, the single best decision this franchise made in 20 years.

 

 

 

As for Melvin, I'm suprised at the methodoligy everyone has used to grade his work. Not a single post mentions that rather important metric called won-loss record? I realize the 1st 3-4 years is irrelevent, but considering half of the teams present core was already in the organization when Melvin took over, I certainly think we can loook at this past seasons record to grade his work. 83-79 may be good compared to what we are used to, but is in no way outstanding.

 

This Brewers team is clearly worse on paper right now than the team that went 83-79, we won't be able to look to AAA to bail the team out in season like last year. The pressure in certainly on Doug Melvin to improve this team rather dramatically in the next couple of months. The stength of this organization has been Jack Z, and Melvin can't even take credit for hiring him.

 

 

If it really is important to use trades to grade a GM, and this team still has forward momentem, them I'd assume some of those trades were made to build our present and future. Consider this, since taking over as GM, Melvin has traded away

 

Richie Sexson

Dan Kolb (after an All-star season)

Lyle Overbay

Carlos Lee

Doug Davis

Will any of the players aquired in these deals, or players aquired indirectly from these deals, start for the Brewers in 2008?Hopefully not Vargas or Bush, Capuano is the best bet. I'd think we'd have at least 1 high quality player aquired for that group of players, just by random luck.

 

 

 

[Brian the Automator]

Taylor could also pull relievers out of it hat, it seemed.

[SoCalBrewfan]

It's a fact. The Rangers ended the 1994 season in 1st place.

 

There's a perfect example of how facts can be misleading, if you're determined to prove a certain point. (And to me, the point you seem to be claiming is that Melvin deserves little or no credit for his Texas division titles.)

 

Yeah, the Rangers had the best record of the four teams in the West that year, a short season...they were 52-62. All ten teams in the other two divisions (AL East and Central) had better records...Texas had the 11th best record in the league. And, as Brewers fans must know all too well this offseason, having the best record after 114 games doesn't necessarily indicate the best team. (Their pythag was two wins worse than their actual record, FWIW, and behind 2nd place Oakland's...so you could make the case that even that 'first place finish' was misleading.) There was of course no postseason that year...

 

So you're arguing that that team is a finished product? Just anyone can take a .456 team and win three division titles in the next five years? (To be fair, the '93 Rangers won 86 and finished second in the old bigger divisions, which was the best record of the four teams that would make up the AL West, and there was good talent there.)

 

The Rangers in the early 90s were stuck in a 84 win rut. While that's a decent team, it's harder to go from 85 wins to 90 than it is to go from 75 wins to 80...regression to the mean pushes everyone toward the middle. Melvin had some nice talent to work with, but the Rangers did improve under his watch, and that's far from a given. And there was some competition in the division, despite claims to the contrary...the Mariners had a young Arod, Griffey, Randy Johnson, Edgar Martinez...they won 90 games and the division in 97, of course. (Those Mariners teams illustrate how a GM can be given significant talent and yet fail to put together a consistent winner.) The Angels had a young core with Salmon, Edmonds, Anderson, and some pitching of note...they were a flawed team but not completely terrible. The three Rangers division winners had 90, 88, and 95 victories. That' not something anyone, particularly a Brewers fan, ought to sneeze at.

 

Melvin isn't a perfect GM by any stretch, but I don't know that there's any such beast. I think there's blemishes on his Milwaukee record, just as there were on his Texas record. I think there are posters here who give Melvin the benefit of the doubt no matter what, and I think there are those who are critical no matter what.

 

To me, a big part of a GM is not just the moves he does make, but those he doesn't. I can't believe anyone is seriously discussing Dean Taylor in a positive light. Taylor did hire Jack Z, and the farm system improved under his watch, but he also made disastrous major league moves. When Taylor took the job, he correctly identified the team's strengths and weaknesses, and then squandered a talented batch of infielders in exchange for the likes of Jimmy Haynes, John Snyder, Jose Acevedo, and Jamey Wright. He gave away Burnitz, and signed Jeffrey Hammonds, which had the dual disadvantage of failing to improve the team and also tying its' hands financially. Whatever else you say about Melvin, he hasn't poured talent down the drain like that...he's added nuggets and found talent under rocks. With the team moving from talent acquisition mode in to competetive mode, his job is harder now...as I said, it's harder to go from .500 to 90 wins than it is to go from 70 to .500. But at least I don't worry that he'll shred the team in a series of reactions to perceived problems.

 

Whether

[Fatter than Joey]

There's a perfect example of how facts can be misleading, if you're determined to prove a certain point. (And to me, the point you seem to be claiming is that Melvin deserves little or no credit for his Texas division titles.)

 

Nope. I'm just simply pointing out that Melvin did not inherit a team that spent 23 years in last place -- Or whatever was claimed. Tom Grieve had done a pretty good job stocking the shelf -- probably better than Dean Taylor.

 

I never said Melvin didn't do a decent job either here or in Milw. -- just that the idea that Melvin inherited a terrible team in TX is false. Melvin inherited a team that hovered around .500 that had some great young talent ready to go.

 

FWIW -- I think Melvin has done better in Milw., I am concerned that some of the things that he never developed well in TX, he may not develop well in Milw.

 

And there was some competition in the division, despite claims to the contrary...

 

This was made in reference to the concept that "the Rangers have never been back" -- I think the talent in the West got ratcheted up a notch with Sea winning 116 games and OAK winning 100 games a couple of times. My guess is that the Rangers playoff drought has more to do with OAK/Cal getting better than DM leaving.

[twobrewers]

Everything else in this post seems serious, but surely this line is meant as a joke, right? I hope so....

Don't mean to hijack here. But Terrace called out a poster who said that "Ned Yost has turned this team into a good one that just doesn't quit.". Logan kinda picked on the poster as well - pointing out that all Yost comments should be followed with an insult.

 

Like Yost or not - how can you disagree with that fact that we are now a good team and doesn't quit?

 

We are a good team. We had a winning record last year. And while Yost's teams have faded down the stretch, I can't say I have seen any players quit. (Estrada excluded, since he quit on a daily basis) In fact, I think the Brewers played their hearts out in the Padre series after they had been elimated. Like Yost or not, the players play for him.

 

Anyways - carry on.

[Fatter than Joey]

Like Yost or not - how can you disagree with that fact that we are now a good team and doesn't quit?

 

I have heard from a number of people that they feel like Yost lost his team and they quit on him. -- It's certainly an opinion held by a non-trivial portion of our fanbase.

 

I think it is undeniable we have some great players -- I don't think it is unarguable that we have a "good team" with regard to balance and depth.

[jason21nl]

we do have some great players that can hit. We don't have great players the can field and thats always going to cost us games.

[logan82]

Logan kinda picked on the poster as well - pointing out that all Yost comments should be followed with an insult.

That wasn't my intention. I was trying to point out you shouldn't bring up Yost's name because there are so many people who don't like Yost that bringing up his name is likley opening up yourself for ridicule.

[clancyphile]

Like Yost or not - how can you disagree with that fact that we are now a good team and doesn't quit?

 

I have heard from a number of people that they feel like Yost lost his team and they quit on him. -- It's certainly an opinion held by a non-trivial portion of our fanbase.

 

I think it is undeniable we have some great players -- I don't think it is unarguable that we have a "good team" with regard to balance and depth.

I remember the 2002 Brewers. That team seemed to be phoning it in.

Yost's team has certainly had a lot of spirit. They didn't pack it in this last year, IMO - they were in it until the last weekend. See 2005, where they made .500 despite Sheets being hurt. And how about 2003, when he took a team that wasn't much different from the 2002 team to a record that was over ten games better? Or 2004, when despite having to trade Sexson and a bunch of injuries, they held the line and didn't regress?

I like the mindset the Brewers seem to have under Yost. Light years better than what they dealt with under Royster and Lopes.

[Fatter than Joey]

That team seemed to be phoning it in.

 

The 2002 Brewers ceiling was phoning it in.

 

I was trying to point out you shouldn't bring up Yost's name because there are so many people who don't like Yost that bringing up his name is likley opening up yourself for ridicule.

 

The funny thing is was back in 2006 I was in the anti-Yost camp, and in the minority -- so I have a lot of respect for those who back Yost nowadays, I know what it is like to be in the minority. -- Just don't expect me to buy what you are selling automatically.

[hauser42]

This Brewers team is clearly worse on paper right now than the team that went 83-79, we won't be able to look to AAA to bail the team out in season like last year. The pressure in certainly on Doug Melvin to improve this team rather dramatically in the next couple of months. The stength of this organization has been Jack Z, and Melvin can't even take credit for hiring him.

 

We not even to Dec 1st and the team is being compared to last year already. Well Braun will be around all year, Hall will have a full year and 2 spring trainings in CF, Hart starting all year in the OF. Only weakness with this team is the closer right now, there are a lot of SP options again this year and Yo will also be around all year. I see this team being better than last year. Maybe you think Graff/Counsel was a better 3B or the moving around of the corner OFers was the right thing to do last year. When you have a group of youngsters all come up together your upper minors will be bare because your best are in the bigs, lower minors are reloading the system for the Brewers as we speak.

 

If it really is important to use trades to grade a GM, and this team still has forward momentem, them I'd assume some of those trades were made to build our present and future. Consider this, since taking over as GM, Melvin has traded away

 

Richie Sexson

Dan Kolb (after an All-star season)

Lyle Overbay

Carlos Lee

Doug Davis

Will any of the players aquired in these deals, or players aquired indirectly from these deals, start for the Brewers in 2008?Hopefully not Vargas or Bush, Capuano is the best bet. I'd think we'd have at least 1 high quality player aquired for that group of players, just by random luck.

 

Bush has a poor run last year and for some reason always had that one big inning, that is something that can get turned around.

 

Overbay was traded away to get some depth in SP and OF.Gross and Bush have helped the team out the past two years and Prince has out performed Overbay.

 

Kolb was a one year wonder and Brewers got a top end prospect that just didn't pan out. Most GMs would have made that move it just didn't work out.

Carlos brought us Coco who put this team in the race last year by slamming the door many times. Coco's 1.5 years year was great for a closer. Lee did not want to be here so Doug got a much needed closer who decided money meant more than a chance at the postseason. How was Doug to know Coco would decide that winnning was not important?

 

Doug Davis are you kidding me?? If you are not here is the deal, he was SP Melciin got off the scrap heap, reaped his best years moved him for a starting cather and SP. The SP is still around to eat innings and help this team win, the catcher was flipped for an arm in the pen. The slackers included with Davis in the trade would have never done much for the Crew.

 

 

Real easy to say we have nothing from these trades when you look at in a glance, and Sexson trade is so long ago I cant believe it is even mentioned. Look a little deeper and think about how this team would not have been if all these players would have been allowed to walk away without the trades.

[TerraceReserved]

Everything else in this post seems serious, but surely this line is meant as a joke, right? I hope so....

Don't mean to hijack here. But Terrace called out a poster who said that "Ned Yost has turned this team into a good one that just doesn't quit.". Logan kinda picked on the poster as well - pointing out that all Yost comments should be followed with an insult.

 

Like Yost or not - how can you disagree with that fact that we are now a good team and doesn't quit?

 

We are a good team. We had a winning record last year. And while Yost's teams have faded down the stretch, I can't say I have seen any players quit. (Estrada excluded, since he quit on a daily basis) In fact, I think the Brewers played their hearts out in the Padre series after they had been elimated. Like Yost or not, the players play for him.

 

Anyways - carry on.

 

First off, I apologize for calling out a poster. I just disagreed with saying that Ned Yost has turned this into a team that doesn't quit. Granted, I'm not the biggest Ned fan, so I may be biased by his various decisions this year that I disliked. I don't disagree with the fact that we are a good team now that doesn't quit, but how much of that can be attributed to Yost? Maybe the players got a taste of winning, and that motivated them in that padres series, or they came together as a team or who knows what. Maybe it was Ned, and I'm just plain wrong. The fact is we will never know, but different opinions will sway different ways on the matter.

[xisxisxis]

Why isn't there any heat on Melvin?

 

Fan websites are notoriously littered with homers who support any move by their beloved team. In fact I do believe brewer goggles were free at fleet farm last week with any purchase over $1. While there are a few dissenters at Brewerfan, the vast majority blindly believe everything Melvin does is golden.

 

Another reason there isn't any heat generated on Melvin is that Attanasio is making money in bucketloads off the Brewers and as long as Doug can deliver the "there's always next year" monologue at the end of every season with enough belief that the Brewers fan's really believe that next year is really when they expected the team to compete and the Brinks truck pulls away from Miller Park full every time then the Brewers organization will give Dougie as much cover as he needs. With a willing media in Milwaukee, a fanbase that is easily fooled, and a nearterm fall guy in Nedly Yost, then it's smooth sailing for the Brewers.

 

 

Melvin is a sacred cow here -- and he has done fine, however, at some point he has to be held accountable. I think he will

be fired if the team goes backward this year.

 

Ah FtJ that's too simple a trap for Dougie to fall into. He's smart enough to make sure his 'good friend' Nedly is on board when the ship is going down and the sharks begin to circle. Nedly will be in the water faster than you can say NASCAR and Dougie will hop off the other side and swim for shore.

 

 

And as for him getting fired? Hell, if Ned can preside over not 1, but 2 collapses of biblical proportions, and get a quick endorsement from the owner, literally hours after getting eliminated, then Doug (whose track record, overall, is a LOT better than Ned's) will be here until he's 80.

 

But Geno, as I eluded to above, their wasn't enough heat on the team this year that they had to sacrifice Nedly and hope the team gets better next year. With Nedly at the helm it's easy to lay blame on him, if necessary, next year and finally hold him accountable for his abysmal performance as manager. As Chief Cynic I would have thought you, of all people, would see the brilliance of their moves to provide plenty of cover for another year of huge profits to the boss and a nice Christmas bonus for his accomodating GM.

 

 

True. What Taylor should get credit for is hiring Jack Z, the single best decision this franchise made in 20 years.

 

Amen. If I had a dollar for every time someone here at Brewerfan gives credit to Melvin for something Jack Z and his scouting department accomplished I could retire.

 

 

As for Melvin, I'm suprised at the methodoligy everyone has used to grade his work. Not a single post mentions that rather important metric called won-loss record?

 

I think most of my coworkers are sick of hearing me say "controls ruin a perfectly good experiment" as much as "facts ruin a perfectly good argument". What fact about Doug Melvin's record as GM indicates that he's an excellent GM? Nothing, therefore you won't hear much about that W-L record in any discussion about his performance.

 

 

Will any of the players aquired in these deals, or players aquired indirectly from these deals, start for the Brewers in 2008?

 

Sadly, for those who were unhappy about the Sexson trade to AZ, the biggest issue was that it doesn't help the Brewers long-term and we are seeing clearly that those concerns were valid. But we got so many players.......yeah......

 

 

Whatever else you say about Melvin, he hasn't poured talent down the drain like that...he's added nuggets and found talent under rocks.

 

I agree that in comparison to Taylor and many other GMs Doug Melvin has done a decent job with the Brewers, but he's hardly as good as many people think. Slightly worse than he thinks, and a hole hell of a lot worse than some other GMs. What he's done in 5 years is hardly impressive, especially when teams like the Tigers and Rockies shoot past the Brewers in performance while we wait year after year for the big breakout.

 

 

With the team moving from talent acquisition mode in to competetive mode, his job is harder now...as I said, it's harder to go from .500 to 90 wins than it is to go from 70 to .500. But at least I don't worry that he'll shred the team in a series of reactions to perceived problems.

 

Very few GMs lose their job because they did too little. Most have a track record that's a contributing factor to their demise. While Dougie's track record is hardly damning, he seems to coast along too much waiting for the inevitable tide of prospects to change the teams fortunes. He's definitely not a gambler and that will make him appear more successful than he is.

[TooLiveBrew]

What fact about Doug Melvin's record as GM indicates that he's an excellent GM? Nothing, therefore you won't hear much about that W-L record in any discussion about his performance.

 

That genius GM Brian Ca$hman has a great W-L record. He must be better.

[JohnBriggs12]

Nice to see there are others out there that see past the spin (hint: you are being spun when the GM comes up with an obscure stat to say how this player or that was really better than what you saw with your own eyes).

 

The real problem is the owner though. To call him a pollyanna is an insult to Pollyanna.

[danzig6767]

What fact about Doug Melvin's record as GM indicates that he's an excellent GM? Nothing, therefore you won't hear much about that W-L record in any discussion about his performance.

 

That genius GM Brian Ca$hman has a great W-L record. He must be better.

No question there are mitigating factors for every GM that can make their job much easier or much tougher to field a playoff team. If your GM of the Yankees or Red Sox, they have a money printing press in the office that makes their job much easier than the GM's of most other teams in baseball. Got a hole you need to fill, want a No.1 starter, or say need a CF, break out the checkbook in free agency or trade for a good one from a team that can no longer afford to pay the guy.

 

Melvin has a much tougher job that someone like Cashman or Theo in Boston, but the Brewers are no longer in the so broke there is almost no chance category. He also unlike some GM's of lower to low-mid level payroll teams has a farm director that produced a bevy of cheap and very productive young talent. We are now in year six of Melvin the GM, given all the talent Jack Z has provided Melvin and the increased payroll, i think it's fair to now ask for more than low 80's win seasons that are close but no cigar results.

 

I'm not one that cares to much for going through a checklist of moves any GM makes and saying for example, more moves than not were good. In the end, it's either your team wins alot under the GM or you don't which matters above all else. I do think Melvin is a good baseball man and mind, but the time for me to accept excuses is just about over. If we miss the playoffs this season, next year will be Doug's seventh season. That would likely be my last straw for him if i was in charge. Seven years is a long time. If a GM can't produce a playoff berth in that amount of years, i'd have to move on regardless if on balance more moves he made worked out than not.