Why isn't there any heat on Melvin?

[Postseason2006]

I have always wondered why people in this forum have this fascination with Doug Melvin. The core of this team was not drafted by him but by Dean Taylor and Jack Z. And Taylor also did not have any luxury with a bigger payroll. Taylor fleeced Cleveland to get Sexson.

 

But yet, most people have confused Doug with the great "Messiah". He has traded bigger players for guys who have been injured or underachieved and in his big blockbuster of last year, gave any the Brewers #1 pitching prospect in the minors at that point along with 2 other potentially valuable chips for a struggling reliever.

 

I have never been a fan of Doug's because he overvalues former players and has little concept of pitching. I followed baseball religiously in the 90's and his Texas teams could never finish. Granted, the Yankees were good but Melvin also had unlimited purse strings to do what he wanted.

[Boy Jeenius]

I see. So the fact that Texas had been a perpetual last place team for the 23 years before Melvin got there, and has been a perpetual sub .500 team since he left is meaningless. The fact that they lost to the Yankees in the playoffs means he's terrible.

 

Looking at the trees and can't see the forest?

 

He takes a shot at wining the pennant this year with a bold move, that doesn't work particularly well, so 20/20 hinsight tells you he stinks? Linebrink just got a solid contract to sign with the WSox, he was/is a decent player. He just did not pitch that well for the Crew. Trade wasn't overly successful. That does happen sometimes. We all would have been screaming a lot louder had he sat on his hands at the deadline.

 

Trading Sexson for 6 MLB players and a trading a waiver pickup for Carlos Lee was dumb too? Those trades changed the whole complexion of the franchise. Every year this franchise has shown some type of overall improvement, both at the major league and minor league levels. They are also not as prone to rush prospects from the minors until they're ready to get their feet wet. It's been a joy not seeing bright young kids ruined before our very eyes.

 

I saw DM at the Texas series and approached him after the last game . He looked miserable, Cordero had blown 2 saves that series. I told him thank you, that I was proud to be a Brewer fan again, that we all understand the big picture and that he was doing a great job of getting the franchise back on it's feet. He was very gracious to me and we chatted a bit. I just can not find one part of your reasoning that I agree with - sorry.

[Bert55]

I agree Boy Jeenius.....DM has always seemed approachable, much like Mark A. Not all of his trades have been "right on". But I trust that when an opportunity to take a chance to improve the club comes along, Doug and staff will make the right choice for the fans. All is not lost here. Your going to loose some guys and gain some guys. The core of the club is intact and that is because we have put together a great group of talent on the field and in the front office.

[RyDogg66]

Sure Melvin has made some questionable moves, but they are on the smaller scale when it comes to the players involved and the opportunities missed. His track record is pretty strong when it comes to picking up players for free, getting a lot out of them and then flipping them for more. THis is evident with guys like Scott Podsednik and Doug Davis, as well as Turnbow and Matt Wise.

 

He also has done well when teams *know* we need to trade a player. Arizona knew we had to trade Sexson and we got 6 players for him. One of those was Overbay, who played better than Sexson over that stretch, we had to trade him and got 2 good major league players and a prospect, while Overbay's replacement has been better than he for the past 2 seasons.

 

Was Davis, Eveland and Krynzel too much for Estrada/Vargas? I dont know. I dont think so. If Davis pitched for the Brewers last year, with that God awful defense behind him and all those walks he would have had an ERA much closer to 5.00 and neither Krynzel or Eveland have proven Melvin wrong yet. Vargas isnt fun to watch but I dont think there is much difference between him and Davis. Also, lets see what Melvin can get for Vargas in trade this offseason.

 

Junior Spivey for Tomo Ohka was another steal, Spivey played out his days in the minors or was awful in the bigs.

 

But to get to the Inman deal. Scott Linebrink was considered one of the best set up guys over the past 2-3 seasons. We were in contention, one of our biggest problems was the bullpen. Melvin traded two low level pitchers for a proven set up guy. The only questionable part of the deal was not keeping THatcher, or giving Thatcher a shot in Milwaukee to see what he had before the deal. Will Inman was the number one pitching prospect by default. Gallardo and Parra had been called up, Jeffress suspended and Rogers hurt. He is a small RH pitcher in A ball. My guess is we can draft two Inmans with the picks we get from Linebrink.

 

Other flaws for Melvin? I dont like how he has gone about addressing the team defense, but I think part of that falls on Yost and the coaches as well.

 

I dont think Melvin is above criticism, but he's done well for the team so far.

[umpref]

Ditto Boy

I agree with your response. I also don't think Taylor did a bad job. Sal had a rough time in the job and the franchise suffered. Jack Z IMO is the man who should get the most credit. I think Taylor brought him in didn't he? Doug has taken that gound work laid by Jack and his team and complemented it with some, overall, fine work. The Linebronk deal was not good in hindsight, but like Boy said - he took a shot. Have the players DM traded away set the league on fire that I missed? DD has done a nice job. Lee is Lee. Cruz hasn't done much. Sexson? I look at what we got in return for trades, but also I like to look at what the players we got rid of have done. That's pretty decent talent evaluation from DM amd Jack combined.

[PeaveyFury]

There's no heat on Melvin because he's done a great job. His trades prior to the Linebrink and Estrada deals were all golden, and there was at least a sound basis to what he was trying to do in those deals.

 

And Taylor was responsible for the core of this team? Yeah, he drafted Prince, Hardy, and Hart, but that's it. Everyone else was acquired under Melvin's watch (with the obvious exceptions of Hall and Sheets).

 

Bottom line, he took over a joke of a team that had lost 100+ games and turned them into a contender within 5 seasons on a limited budget. He's done a great job and there's really no denying that.

[jackalope02ca]

Why would you put heat on Melvin. He's an absolute genious. He has surrounded himself with real baseball people that know the game and turned a sorry franchise into a contender in a small market. He hasn't made a terrible move yet. I was and still am as big a Will Inman fan as anyone but he hasn't pitched a game above AA yet. We traded him for the top reliever on the market at the time. You have to give to get. For those who think Linebrink is mediocre look at the contract he just signed. I'd love to be considered mediocre or done if I could get that kind of cash.

[rluzinski]

Melvin has gotten plenty of criticism on these boards for certain moves. The Davis/Estrada trade was 50/50, as was the Linebrink acquisition. It's not just trades, either. Some (myself included) don't feel he puts enough empahis on defense. Others feel that he generally neglects the bullpen. If you read this board on even a semi-regular basis, it won't take long to find someone disagreeing with Melvin about something. No one thinks he's never made a mistake.

 

It just appears that, overall, most are satisfied with his overall performance as the Brewers' GM. You might not be one of them but you are probably in the minority. No need to pretend he's never criticized, however.

[Fatter than Joey]

I see. So the fact that Texas had been a perpetual last place team for the 23 years before Melvin got there, and has been a perpetual sub .500 team since he left is meaningless.

 

This statement is false, and therefore meaningless. The Rangers had won 83+ games in 4 of the 5 seasons prior to 1994 --

In 1994 (strike), the season before DM was hired the Rangers finished 52-62, but in first place in the AL West. So Melvin inherited a 1st place team, and a team that won 83+ games 4 of 5 years prior. Plus Grieve had set the table pretty well with Rodriguez, Gonzalez, Clark, Rogers, etc.

 

Most of the Rangers problems after 2001, can be attributed to the contract Arod received, which for good or bad should not be

attributed to Melvin. The other problem the post-Melvin Rangers have had, was that the A's became a 100 win team, the M's won

116 games and the Angels became a powerhouse. Melvin had the luxury of working in the West while it sucked

 

Looking at the trees and can't see the forest?

 

You probably shouldn't make this statement when your last statement was false.

 

He takes a shot at wining the pennant this year with a bold move, that doesn't work particularly well, so 20/20 hinsight tells you he stinks?

 

A lot of posters here on BFnet were not surprised that Linebrink struggled -- he really started going down the crapper in SD. Linebrink will have his worst season yet (I predict) pitching in the AL central. BFnet didn't need hindsight to realize the Linebrink trade was bad.

 

Those trades changed the whole complexion of the franchise

 

I think the Lee trade was a great one -- the Sexson trade was solid at best. An example of a trade that really changed

the complexion of the franchise would be the Cooper trade, or the Simmons/Fingers trade. Melvin has yet to make a deal

of that magnitude.

 

Other flaws for Melvin? I dont like how he has gone about addressing the team defense, but I think part of that falls on Yost and the coaches as well.

 

Agreed.

 

Bottom line, he took over a joke of a team that had lost 100+ games and turned them into a contender within 5 seasons on a limited budget.

 

He has also benefited from owner changes in both TX and MIL that loosened up the purse strings.

 

Melvin is a sacred cow here -- and he has done fine, however, at some point he has to be held accountable. I think he will

be fired if the team goes backward this year.

 

EDIT: Some of his moves like extending Clark/Turnbow have been questioned as well.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Melvin takes his fair share of heat. I remember him getting jumped on for the 2 year extension to Helms.

 

It seems Melvin has an affinity for taking his scrap heap performers, and after they have one semi-solid year, rewarding them with a multi-year deal, that inevitably comes around to bite the team in the proverbial rear. It wouldn't be such a big deal, but with these reclamation projects, there's no reason to not go year-to-year in arby with them when they haven't got a proven track record of success at the big league level.

 

That's the only *major* gripe I have with how Melvin runs the team, but it's not like it's crippled them financially.

[sweepscc]

We are the Brewers and just excited to be winning is the answer to your question. But that will change and I think accountability should begin this year. I personally will be looking to see if Melvin neglects the bullpen yet again this off season.

[splitterpfj]

First off, there is no doubt that Jack Z has done terrific work, and deserves as much credit as anyone else for the group of young players the Brewers are now building around. No question, and I'm glad he didn't get one of the GM jobs that had come open at the end of the season.

 

As to Melvin, I think he should be praised for his work, overall he's done an excellent job. I don't think he should be universally praised, not everything he has done has gone according to plan - but anyone who expects as much won't like any GM, nobody's perfect.

 

Doug found Podsednik, and Davis, and Kolb, he got a lot for Sexson, it was certainly a good trade, but he didn't get a prospect that became a stud, so ok, really solid deal, not incredible (see Pierzynski). Good move getting Carlos Lee, good move getting Cordero and Mench for Carlos Lee. Bush for Overbay looks like an even deal. I don't hate the Linebrink deal, I'm glad he did it - he took a shot, which he should have, and perhaps now Mr Z will draft a special talent with one of the extra picks.

 

Estrada bombed, Vargas will never be more than a 5 starter, and Aquino hasn't worked out, that's one deal that sits in the "L" column right now. Kolb for Capellan really did nothing for either side, but who among us wouldn't have done it at the time? The move to add Koskie didn't do what it should have, for obvious reasons, I can't really call that a win because of what happened, but again, who wouldn't have done that?

 

My reaction to Doug is more surprise by the harsh reactions his moves get - in both directions. People tend to think he's just robbed someone, or that he's a complete idiot, who just got used. Most of the time, he's neither, and most of the time, his moves make the club better. Right now is a great example - it's a week before the Winter Meetings, and people have drawn up the Opening Day roster, and decided we have the worst bullpen of all time. On this point I absolutely think Doug deserves the benefit of the doubt, if the likes of us can run the numbers and see what's missing out there - I sort of think Doug Melvin and his staff can do that too.

[brewtank34]

http://re3.mm-a1.yimg.com/image/2184654176 http://re3.mm-a11.yimg.com/image/60170012 http://re3.mm-a4.yimg.com/image/2861709625

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"Melvin is a sacred cow here -- and he has done fine, however, at some point he has to be held accountable. I think he will

be fired if the team goes backward this year. "

 

While I agree that Melvin gets a lot of leeeway from the fans here, we HAVE been questioning his performance over the last 2 years or so. Will he be held accountable if the team falls back below .500 as he folds every time a free agent can leave us? By the fans and media (except for Powell, of course)? Yes. But by Mark? Probably not.

 

And as for him getting fired? Hell, if Ned can preside over not 1, but 2 collapses of biblical proportions, and get a quick endorsement from the owner, literally hours after getting eliminated, then Doug (whose track record, overall, is a LOT better than Ned's) will be here until he's 80.

 

Russ:

 

Literally ONE minute before you posted: "If you read this board on even a semi-regular basis, it won't take long to find someone disagreeing with Melvin about something. No one thinks he's never made a mistake."

 

jackalope02ca wrote THIS:

 

"Why would you put heat on Melvin. He's an absolute genious. He has surrounded himself with real baseball people that know the game and turned a sorry franchise into a contender in a small market. He hasn't made a terrible move yet."

 

Sorry, but that was too good to pass up! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Ennder]

Most of the time when DM pulls off a deal I at least understand where he is coming from, I cannot say that with most GM's. He has overpayed some marginal players but he hasn't done it in a way that could screw the team over long term, it has generally been 2 year type deals. He has made some decent trades and some that didn't work out just like every other GM does.

 

Part of it comes down to perception too. I don't think Doug Davis is any better than Vargas so to me that deal is even, Davis was very mediocre last year, he just had a good D behind him and a good bullpen saving him runs unlike Vargas. I think Inman is a future #4 or #5 starter so that one didn't bother me quite as much either.

[Eddiehitsthefoulpole]

What Doug does makes a lot more sense than his two predecessors. Doug didn't set this year's team up quite right. If he can't do it for next year than maybe he catches some heat. I think he gets at least two more seasons. We are still somewhat financially constrained. Everybody else is raising their payroll at the same time we are, so we are still a low payroll team. Being the GM of the Brewers is a tough job. I think that DM has done a lot more good than bad.

[TerraceReserved]

I think this T-shirt pretty much sums it up.

 

http://www.rightfieldbleachers.com/melvinshirt.jpg

[Weirdos19]

I understand that all Gm's make mistakes. But here are a few moves Melvin has made that make sense.

 

He has waited th appropriate time to bring up Prince, Rickie, Hart, Braun, Gallardo, Parra, and CV. None struggled when they first got to the majors. That is huge. Their confidence didn't get ruined by struggling when they first got to the majors. To me, a vastly underrated skill for GM's. It's not all trades. There is a pressure to bring up young prospects too early.

 

Also, letting Linebrink and Coco go are good moves. Getting draft picks for them is better than the risk they run signing either. We have almost all of our position prospects blocked by young major leaguers. A deal for a closer is imminent. I'd rather give 2 prospects and pay a closer 4 million than pay a closer 46 million, especailly when you run the risk of being stuck with him longer than he is effective.

[Thurston Fluff]

I see. So the fact that Texas had been a perpetual last place team for the 23 years before Melvin got there, and has been a perpetual sub .500 team since he left is meaningless.

 

This statement is false, and therefore meaningless. The Rangers had won 83+ games in 4 of the 5 seasons prior to 1994 --

In 1994 (strike), the season before DM was hired the Rangers finished 52-62, but in first place in the AL West. So Melvin inherited a 1st place team, and a team that won 83+ games 4 of 5 years prior.

 

I agreed with most of what you said FTJ but this one is a stretch.

But yet, most people have confused Doug with the great "Messiah". He has traded bigger players for guys who have been injured or underachieved and in his big blockbuster of last year, gave any the Brewers #1 pitching prospect in the minors at that point along with 2 other potentially valuable chips for a struggling reliever.

If memory serves Melvin had about the same size payroll his first year and less than 30 million his second year. Yet Taylor was the one who presided over the 106 loss team. He had a nice trade for Sexon but also traded Loretta for Ginter and Cirillo in his prime for Wright and Haynes. Melvin hasn't blown money on injury prone players coming off one decent Coors inflated year either.

Melvin has made istakes like all GM's do but he seems to have a good idea of how to build a team. This year will be a good test of his abilities. He has to figure out the bullpen and fill out the roster without long term contracts that could harm the team's ability to retain some of the arby eligable players these next few years.

One thing that I do tend to think gets overlooked or blamed on Yost is Melvin sometimes give's Yost square pegs to fit in round holes. The Mota deal is one that might turn out to be that way. Melvin wanted a reliever who could go more than one inning. I suspect Yost told him what he needed and that was one of those needs though that is only my own belief. Melvin talked about Mota's ability to do that. Yet Mota struggled in his second innings last year. If Yost is given someone to use in a certain role that isn't functional for that role everyone will inevitable blame Yost for not using him properly. Yet in some ways it's more on Melvin.

[sweepscc]

I understand that all Gm's make mistakes. But here are a few moves Melvin has made that make sense.

 

He has waited th appropriate time to bring up Prince, Rickie, Hart, Braun, Gallardo, Parra, and CV. None struggled when they first got to the majors. That is huge. Their confidence didn't get ruined by struggling when they first got to the majors. To me, a vastly underrated skill for GM's. It's not all trades. There is a pressure to bring up young prospects too early.

Then did he destroy Eveland and Weeks? A GM largely uses others to help inform them when a prospect is ready.

 

[Fatter than Joey]

I agreed with most of what you said FTJ but this one is a stretch.

 

It's a fact. The Rangers ended the 1994 season in 1st place.

[logan82]

Wasn't there a thread almost exactly like this about a month ago?

[MoneyballMan]

There's no heat on Melvin because he's done a great job. His trades prior to the Linebrink and Estrada deals were all golden, and there was at least a sound basis to what he was trying to do in those deals.

 

And Taylor was responsible for the core of this team? Yeah, he drafted Prince, Hardy, and Hart, but that's it. Everyone else was acquired under Melvin's watch (with the obvious exceptions of Hall and Sheets).

 

Bottom line, he took over a joke of a team that had lost 100+ games and turned them into a contender within 5 seasons on a limited budget. He's done a great job and there's really no denying that.

Amen, brother.

[brewmann04]

we made a legit offer to Coco and i have no problem with Melvin Walking away.

[clancyphile]

Folks, Doug Melvin has done a great job.

 

He's hired good personnel - Ned Yost has turned this team into a good one that just doesn't quit. He kept a great scouting unit he inherited from Dean Taylor, and he's been able to find folks who we've flipped for real talent, too.

 

Time to sign him to a long-term deal, if you ask me.