Cordero to Reds; 4 years, $46 million

[Fatter than Joey]

COMPARATIVELY, if you are trying to pay the bills, put kids through college and save for retirement, the difference over four years making 10.5 million a year and 11.5 million a year is very small.

 

I hear what you are saying -- at the end of the day, it's still a million dollars -- I just don't see how you leave that on the table.

[RyDogg66]

COMPARATIVELY, if you are trying to pay the bills, put kids through college and save for retirement, the difference over four years making 10.5 million a year and 11.5 million a year is very small.

 

I hear what you are saying -- at the end of the day, it's still a million dollars -- I just don't see how you leave that on the table.

Easy, FTJ. Lets say you are an accountant (random job) and you work for a very family friendly company, love the co-workers, management is good to you, the holiday party serves great food and most importantly its a top notch company that you know is going to be in business and you have security. On top of that, you love where you live, good schools, the kids are happy, lots of friends, safe neighborhood. They offer to pay you 4 yrs/42 million for the next 4 years, AFTER you told them how much you like it there and that you would like to stay.

Enter, a competition firm. They offer you the exact same job in a different city that is hundreds of miles away, where you do not know the co-workers, the management and they may serve Bud Ice at the Holiday party. On top of that the city isnt as nice, you dont know anyone, dont want to take the kids out of school, the city isnt as safe, etc. they offer you 4 years 46 million.

 

I can see taking less to be happier in that scenario.

 

 

[Brian the Automator]

I can see taking less to be happier in that scenario.

I think it would be rather selfish of Coco to leave a million dollars on the table, when most likely, he's going to be using at least a portion of it to better other peoples' lives.

 

[And That]

He might have taken less to be with the Brewers if a better shot at winning a World Series ring was high on his priority list (assuming the Brewers do have a better shot than the Reds over the next 4 years), but who could possibly blame him for taking more cash?

[Fatter than Joey]

I can see taking less to be happier in that scenario.

 

Certainly -- I wouldn't fault him for taking the Brewers offer either -- I'm just saying -- 4 million is substantial.

 

He might have taken less to be with the Brewers if a better shot at winning a World Series ring was high on his priority list

 

Sure. I don't think it is obvious that the Brewers are any closer than the Reds.

[homer]

Would people be happier if he had taken less to go to the Reds?

[adambr2]

I can see taking less to be happier in that scenario.

 

Certainly -- I wouldn't fault him for taking the Brewers offer either -- I'm just saying -- 4 million is substantial.

 

He might have taken less to be with the Brewers if a better shot at winning a World Series ring was high on his priority list

 

Sure. I don't think it is obvious that the Brewers are any closer than the Reds.

 

You don't? I really find that hard to believe. I think the general consensus with most of the baseball world is that we're a LOT closer to having a shot at a World Series than the Reds are.

[Fatter than Joey]

You don't? I really find that hard to believe.

 

They won more games after the AS break than the Brewers -- have some young arms in

Bailey and Cueto, and they just upgraded their BP in a huge fashion.

 

I'm not saying that the Reds are better -- but the gap is not as big

as some may think.

[And That]

they just upgraded their BP in a huge fashion.

But my point was, with both teams sans-Cordero, the Brewers are the better team, and that may have persuaded CoCo to stay here. Since the Reds signed Cordero, they've obviously closed the gap (whatever expanse of a gap you see fit) on the Brewers by a bit.

 

[Brian the Automator]

I'm not saying that the Reds are better -- but the gap is not as big

as some may think.

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sports/baker1109.jpg

[Fatter than Joey]

But my point was, with both teams sans-Cordero, the Brewers are the better team

 

I'm not so sure -- I don't think bringing in Kendall was an improvement. Losing Linebrink

and bringing on Choate + Mota is a net loss of hit points.

 

Jenkins is currently replaced by ????

 

You add that to the fact that the Reds won more games in the 2nd half than the Brewers

did -- I just fail to see how the Reds are "obviously worse" than the Brewers

 

I will see your

 

http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/topstory/sports/baker1109.jpg

 

and raise you

 

http://www.madison.com/images/articles/wsj/2007/07/04/48091_thumb.jpg + http://www.survivinggrady.com/sveumclass.jpg

[GenoSeligPrieb]

Another Type A free agent reliever is gone. This week alone, our team just got a lot thinner. Our pen is arguably the worst in the majors right now. Lots to get to, starting with this hypocrite:

"I myself, I am happy. It was an unbelievable season. I love it over here. I love all the guys over here, the coaching staff, everybody. I love Milwaukee. But let's see what happens." It's not up to me."

Then who IS it up to, CoCo?

I keep being told that the player decides where he wants to go, but apparently it's not up to Cordero to re-sign with Milwaukee. Cincinnati offered more money, and THAT'S where he was "guided."

Doug Melvin knows how free agents are "guided": "In the end, it's always about money. This helps raise the bar for other closers. That's the way it is, no matter what they say."

Exactly.

Re-read those final 5 words Cordero said. "It's. Not. Up. To. Me." That's all we need to know here, right, Russ?

 

"Draft a college closer?

 

(whither art though, Geno?)"

 

Brett:

Not sure if your post here was intended to be in blue or not, but this may not be so outlandish an idea. If the plan is to select a fireballer who closes, it may take a year or 2, max, in the minors, but if our selection pans out, we can have a good closer for about 6 years.

But my plan involves trading for/buying a David Riske/Jamie Walker type, and just giving him the ball in save situations.

"Actually, signing Cordero would have been much more detrimental in their ability to re-sign those guys than not signing him does. Now they'll have some money when those guys hit FA, instead of an old ineffective closer."

You sound confident that we can keep Braun, Hardy, Hart and especially Scott Boras's client, Prince Fielder.

If this week taught us anything, it's that, no matter how much money Milwaukee offers, either a) someone always has more, b) Doug tends to drop out of spending on anyone significant, regardless of how much salary room he has to operate with, c) our free agents-to-be don't love Milwaukee as much as they claim to, and d) the union doesn't want All-Star free agents to play in Milwaukee.

As soon as our SS, 3B, 1B, RF and anyone else is contractually eligible, they'll be gone, even if we supposedly should be able to theoretically meet their demands.

"The Milwaukee market cannot afford to pay relievers that type of money especially with all the young guys who we will be trying to keep in the coming years. Would you rather have Coredero or Corey Hart?"

This is the PERFECT time to pay to retain veterans who can keep up competitive. When the Harts, Fielders, Hardys and Brauns are still cheap.

We could have afforded to keep both Linebrink and Cordero. It would have damaged our flexibility to repair holes elsewhere, but everyone not named Sheets is inexpensive. Keeping Hart and Cordero could have happened. They're not mutually exclusive, avrock.

 

"in the grand scheme of his financial future, is there much difference between 42 or 46 million? I can see why players take the bigger contract when the gap between offers is large, but i can't see how the Reds offer vs the Brewers one will change his lifestyle or financial future in any way."

 

Great question, danzig.

 

$42 million? $46 million? The difference is $600,000. That's 15% = what his agent gets for this contract.

 

Cordero's grandchildren were already set for life, before he signed the deal. Now he's just making more for some guy named Carrot von Rascal or Stringbean Fellow...

"Except when the Reds next play in Milwaukee, we should all plan to bring cloth bags marked with a dollar sign (fill them up with whatever - peanuts, brat wrappers, $5 player tees - whatever will make the bags look plump and full of cash), and silently hold them up en masse when their big money closer takes the field."

Count me in, Laura!

Back when Molitor signed for an extra few million to leave Milwaukee, I was the guy who brought the rod and reel with the dollar bill on it, with my sign "I'm Fishing for Mollies"

"Carlos Lee leaving for 6 years, 100 million vs. our 4 years, $48 million is understandable. "

And when you add in the fact that Carlos Lee already owned a ranch just outside Houston, that's when I made my peace with it. Lee was offered less than half of what the Astros gave him to end his career a reasonable car ride away from home. And while Lee never spoke ill about Milwaukee, he remained non-committal, and said he enjoyed playing here, and that's that. Cordero slobbered all over the Brewer players, coaches, front office, ushers and peanut vendors....then he lights out of here, to assure his family's set for life 46 times over instead of 42 times over. To hell with him.

"Will it be considered acceptable to boo CoCo when he returns to Milwaukee? "

All that love Cordero said he had for his Brewer teammates, his coaches, his fans is all trumped by his love for an extra few million dollars. Next year, I will buy tickets when we face Cincinnati and I will boo Cordero back to the Stone Age.

"I'm pretty sure he will get roundly booed by most of the fans next season. Well, at least the casual fans."

Casual fans, eh, pitchleague? Nice condescension there. Any Brewer fan who feels misled, betrayed by Cordero's professed love for everything Brewer smacks of hypocricy. He's full of it, and the vast majority of us jilted fans can rightly express their anger over this without being labeled "casual" by someone who disagrees.

"He's just one guy who will pitch one inning maybe every other day."

But those are critical innings. Game on the line situations. Win or lose. Pitchers who can thrive in those close-out situations ARE worth good money. It's about the quality of those innings pitched, not the quantity.

" I just think it's pretty easy to find a guy that does half as good as Coco at a 3/4 of his contact."

"Why would you want to settle for a guy half as good as our best relief pitcher? That screams "settle for mediocrity because it's cheaper!"

Migod, do I hate that "1/2 the production for a cheaper price" crap! That's what a contender needs: Half the production of a top closer. Nice reply, Blazer!

"and that's another 2nd round pick."...."So for the 2008 draft we will have one first round pick, 2 compensation picks between the 1st and 2nd round, and 3 2nd round picks?"

Screw draft picks already. We're steadily getting picked apart here. It may have been OK to allow one of your established, name relievers go elsewhere, but now our bullpen, with such luminaries as Wise, Mota and Choate in middle innings, and Turnbow now closing, is down there with Tampa's, Baltimore's, and Pittsburgh's. Any of those teams contenders? Nope.

It's like following the Buffalo Sabres. They are prepetually on a shoestring budget, in an unattractive market, but have been able to develop some key players from the draft. Mix in some wise trades (Daniel Briere from Phoenix, Chris Drury from Colorado, Danius Zubrus from Washington), and Buffalo finishes as the #1 seed in last year's playoffs. They go deep, but don't win the Cup, but as soon as the free agent period opens, their superstars leave town for big markets and big money so fast, they leave skidmarks. This year? Figuring they'd bravely make do with their youth, the Sabres, without that veteran scoring punch, are under .500 and in dead last in a tough division.

OK, the Brewers aren't a last place club again, now. But the parallels are obvious.

"If we can fix the bullpen or Yost turns into a league average manager I could see 85+."

How about this, Ennder? Ned will cost us 5-6 games in 2008. Games we can no longer afford to pee away on sentimentality for a manager the owner apparently likes. What if we had a real, proven, winner for a manager? A 2008 playoff run could still be plausible. But with Ned still around, it's like we're starting off a Monopoly game with $1,200 when everyone else takes their first turn, armed with $1,500.

"This could go a long ways towards restocking our farm system"

Yeah, at this rate, we'll be contenders again by 2012.

Remember that window of opportunity we've enjoyed since St. Louis, Cincinnati and Houston were underfunded or asleep? Unless we get a real closer, it just got painted shut for a few years.

[logan82]

The problem is that when the bulk of Cordero's current contract is due, is exactly when we will need the money for our young players.

They may not be free agents, but they will still demand quite a bit in arbitration.

[logan82]

Pitchleague shouldn't have said casual fans, he should have said classless fans.

[Fatter than Joey]

Nice post Geno -- We are paying Darillermo Motbow $6.4M this year -- Has that sunk in yet?

 

I know they aren't a platoon -- but they are a tag-team -- much like Jake the Milkman & Apollo Athens v. The Road Warriors in the old AWA.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"Pitchleague shouldn't have said casual fans, he should have said classless fans."

 

 

First of all, thanks for calling me classless, Logan. You're the best!

 

Let's see who's more classless, though:

 

Fans who supported Cordero when he came to us as a deposed closer and the Brewers helped resurrect his career, or someone who claims to love everyone here and then bolts for slightly more money?

 

-----(edit)--------

 

" Nice post Geno -- We are paying Darillermo Motbow $6.4M this year -- Has that sunk in yet?

 

I know they aren't a platoon -- but they are a tag-team -- much like Jake the Milkman & Apollo Athens v. The Road Warriors in the old AWA."

 

Thanks for the kind words, FTJ.

 

And by the way, if Turnbow's the Milkman, and Mota's Apollo Athens, does that make Greg Aquino, Nacho Barerra?

[Big Reed]

sorry, I didn't contribute sooner. I was on vacation for the last 5 days. A lot happened while I was gone. it's obvious there are some brewers fans who are very upset we didn't come forward to keep our own. and there are others who claim players ask for too much money.

 

The facts are - the brewers could have matched the amount of money the reds gave Coco. they could have even offered more. the Brewers are no longer broke. However, the brewers elected to save the money verses spend it. that was their choice- not the fans' choice.

 

One thing I keep remembering when I see the brewers saying good bye to jenkins and Cordero and the $20+ million it would have cost to keep both players next year. The thing i remember is melvin at the begining of last year saying that the brewers' payroll of around $70+ million was $10 million over their projected budgeted payroll and he was going to make a trade to bring our payroll back to the projected $60-$64 million. Everybody thought that meant the brewers were going to trade jenkins before May. Well, that trade never happened. and neither did any other trade that would reduce the Brewers' payroll to it's targeted amount. By allowing Graffy, Cordero and jenkins to walk, the brewers have basically lowered their payroll for next year to what it's target was supposed to be for this past year. I think it's highly likely the money saved by not signing Cordero is not going to be used to sign another big name free agent. The more likely event is that the Brewers' payroll will go back to the $60-65 million area, and our owner will spill out those imortal words of how this gives us "financial flexibility"! I recall those famous words used in the past when the Brewers ' franchise had a lot of financial flexibility, and did absolutely nothing with it.

 

Events like this are the reasons i was screaming last July and August for the brewers to make a move to bolster the team. i wanted the brewers to rent aging, overpriced veterans last year. Why? because last year was the closest the Brewers are going to get to the play-offs in the next 5 years. over the long haul, the brewers can't outspend the Cards or Cubs. They have to take advantage of the opportunities presented. unlike other clubs, the brewers don't have a tremendous window of opportunity. I' m afraid that window was last year. the future is seldom brighter than the present- especially for small market teams. No doubt, the brewers will be a good team next year, but the Cubs will be better, the Cards will regroup, and the Astros and reds will be improved. if you keep planning for the future, you will never win in the present.

 

Gee, it's nice the Brewers saved a lot of money by not resigning Cordero. So where is that money going to go? To sign barry Bonds? or to lower the brewers' payroll back to $60 million?

[Weirdos19]

"Pitchleague shouldn't have said casual fans, he should have said classless fans."

 

 

First of all, thanks for calling me classless, Logan. You're the best!

 

Let's see who's more classless, though:

 

Fans who supported Cordero when he came to us as a deposed closer and the Brewers helped resurrect his career, or someone who claims to love everyone here and then bolts for slightly more money?

 

-----(edit)--------

 

" Nice post Geno -- We are paying Darillermo Motbow $6.4M this year -- Has that sunk in yet?

 

I know they aren't a platoon -- but they are a tag-team -- much like Jake the Milkman & Apollo Athens v. The Road Warriors in the old AWA."

 

Thanks for the kind words, FTJ.

 

And by the way, if Turnbow's the Milkman, and Mota's Apollo Athens, does that make Greg Aquino, Nacho Barerra?

 

It means Tito Santana signed with the Reds.

[Fatter than Joey]

And by the way, if Turnbow's the Milkman, and Mota's Apollo Athens, does that make Greg Aquino, Nacho Barerra?

 

When they face the Freebirds you bet!

 

Nicely played.

[gregmag]

It doesn't seem to me like Cordero's ability warrants what, if I'm not mistaken, is the biggest free agent deal a reliever has ever gotten. I also can't see how a small market team ever builds a winner by paying a player of his age and ability that much. I don't see him topping last season's performance, and when all was said and done, he played as big a role in the team's fall as in its rise. But maybe I'm missing something; we'll see.

 

It's all about opportunity cost now. If those of us who approve of this non-signing at this price turn out to be right, that will only be because DM figures out how to use the money he saved this week to strengthen the bullpen, either directly (FA) or indirectly (moving around resources through a trade). I really would prefer two legit power arms to one Cordero -- because, as most everyone here seems to agree, the real need isn't a closer but a better BP top-to-bottom.

 

The off-season just got more interesting, anyway. DM -- you're on the clock.

 

Greg.

[crewcrazy]

While it definitely stinks to lose CoCo in the short term, I still think any solid relief pitcher can make a good closer, especially considering "closers" usually get to feast on the 7-8-9 guys in the order after the "set up" guy takes care of the meat of the order. I did a rough compilation of the batters CoCo faced this year:

 

Order Times Faced

1 29

2 30

3 29

4 27

5 22

6 22

7 29

8 35

9 29

 

I just did this by recording the spot in the order of every batter that CoCo faced -- by no means perfect, considering I might have missed an AB or two here or there, but I'm pretty sure I have it right for the most part. Another problem with this is that it doesn't really show the situations CoCo entered games in -- for example, there was a game against the Astros where he entered with 2 runners on base and faced Berkman-Lee-Scott; and there were a lot of games where he entered the game at the beginning of the 9th, ready to face the bottom of the St. Louis order featuring Skip Schumaker and So Taguchi. It'd be interesting to see a tally of the situations he came in on (how many 8-9-1's vs. 2-3-4's, etc.), but it took me too long to go through the PBP of every CoCo appearance this year for that simple list above...maybe tomorrow. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

The point I'm trying to get at with all of this is that closers face the bottom of the order more often than they face the Carlos Lee-s and Aramis Ramirez-es of the league. Not having a "shutdown" closer like CoCo is probably a bit overrated, especially when you consider that the Indians were a game away from going to the World Series with Joe Borowski as their closer, and the Rockies made the World Series even after replacing Brian Fuentes with a relatively unproven Manny Corpas.

 

Sure, it's a little unnerving to not be able to point to a guy right now and say "he's our closer", but I'm willing to wait until the end of the offseason to see what kind of bullpen arms Melvin adds. As long as he gets a solid arm or two (not counting BBQ lefties like Choate), I won't be too worried. Maybe I'm just naive, though.

 

Edit because I type slow:

 

I don't see him topping last season's performance, and when all was said and done, he played as big a role in the team's fall as in its rise. But maybe I'm missing something; we'll see.

 

I think that's a good point, too. Where would the 2007 Brewers finish if Cordero wasn't absolutely gawd-awful in June and July?

[Robideaux]

Wow. I understand the disappointment, but I don't get the anger directed towards the player. This is not just a game, it's also a business. The only thing Cordero owed the Brewers was too show up every day at the ballpark and give 100% effort. I think most of us will agree that he earned his paycheck this last year and a half during his sojourn in Milwaukee. It's not an insult that he decided to play for another team for more money. It's how the system works. Why should he essentially pay 4 million to the Milwaukee Brewers organization for the right to play here? Does he have family here? Does he keep a permanent residence here? Are the ladies hotter in Milwaukee than in Cincinnati? What is the incentive for him to stay as opposed to testing out another city?

 

Don't talk to me about loyalty. If the Brewers were "loyal" wouldn't they have picked up Jenkins option? Loyalty would have to work both ways. Loyalty would dictate that a team shouldn't trade a vet to make room for a youngster or decline an option that we think is too rich for our taste.

 

Its enlightened self-interest. Its capitalism. Love it or hate it, but that's how the "game" works.

 

In short, to borrow from the lyrical stylings of the immortal Ice T, "Don't hate the player, hate the game."

[adambr2]

Regarding the argument that Cordero risked losing his offer from the Reds if he allowed the Brewers to change theirs -- basically if he allowed the Brewers to change their offer, he risked MAYBE having to accept a 4 year, $42 million offer from the Brewers rather than a 4 year, $46 million offer from the Reds?

 

I just don't see the major significance of this, despite $4 million being well more than I'll ever have in my lifetime. I still see it as an issue of greed. I know people that have turned down 30% raises because they wanted to stay in their hometown, and I can assure you that they're never going to have the chance to live as comfortably as Cordero does.

 

I don't know what charity has to do with it, but I really don't buy that how much money he would be able to give to the United Way was a factor in Cordero's decision.

 

Be that as it may, it's still his decision and his life, but I don't see why we can't have some animosity after hearing him proclaim his loyalty to the team, fake as it was. He will hear the boobirds in his return trip to Milwaukee, and rightfully so. A lot more rightfully than Lee, and he definitely hears it.

[cruiserx43]

I think crewcrazy has an excellent point and I am surprised it was not brought up earlier. The closer's role is amplified because he is getting the LAST three outs, not necessarily the TOUGHEST outs. Look at the Cubs for instance. We may all think Dempster was a crappy closer but he had guys like Marmol, Howry and Wood getting guys out before him. Made for a pretty good bullpen. I don't know if Howry has any availability but he could be just as useful as any of the other RP's listed IMO.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"he played as big a role in the team's fall as in its rise."

 

Well said, greg.

 

I stand by what I said when I nominated CoCoCo as out #8 reason why we blew another 2nd half, and finished out of the money. He contributed more than his share of failure.

 

That said, of course, the answer is NOT to let him just go. But again, if they replace him with a Joe Nathan (I'm not holding my breath for this, by the way) or Chad Cordero (MUCH cheaper, and a great solution), then Doug's back in my good graces. Right now? Not so much.

 

"The off-season just got more interesting, anyway. DM -- you're on the clock."

 

Exactly.

 

Doug better impress Brewer Nation, 'cuz after this brutal week, we're pretty wounded and angry. A Joe Nathan or a Chad Cordero will do wonders, but I'll settle for a couple of quality setup men, like Jeremy Affeldt, Matt Capps, Scott Downs...hell, I'd even consider Kerry Wood for the right money, and have 2 of them pitch in together somehow to nail down those last few crucial outs and bring home some victories.

 

Does losing CoCoCo hurt our chances next year? Absolutely, if we don't backfill that role with quality veterans. But I want a plausible replacement, and soon.