Cordero to Reds; 4 years, $46 million

[colbyjack]

As for Villanueva, why do we want to limit a good pitcher to 60-70 innings when we have a chance to get 200 out of him?

 

This reminds me of the argument of what would you rather have: A Hall of Fame hitter or a Hall of Fame pitcher?

 

A hitter obviously gives you production almost each and every day, while a starter only goes once every five days.

 

While a closer doesn't pitch as often as a hitter takes the field, he does pitch twice as often as a starter, and therefore it could be argued that he has a direct effect on more games than any starter does, and therefore could be more valuable.

 

Like I said above, I prefer Villy as a starter, but if it's between him and Bush (or even Turnbow and McClung), I take CV the younger.

[Ennder]

Cordero blew 14% of his save chances last year, so please don't over estimate the closers worth. Losing him hurts because our bullpen as a whole is much weaker, but any chuckle head we throw in at closer is probably going to convert 80% of his saves. We need to get a better bullpen but not because we lost our closer, because our bullpen is just weak in general.

[DHonks]

I like the idea of Bush as a starter. He's a two-pitch pitcher. His huge Drabek-like curve would be more effective against hitters that lack patience (ie, later in games the hitters and pinch hitters often jump at first pitches) and his heater might gain 2-4 mph. If suddenly Bush started gunning it 96 instead of 92, he could be a stud closer.

[Bernie Crewer]

Thank you Francisco Cordero for a year and a third of really great work. You stepped into a bullpen that absolutely had to have your stuff and results. You came to us with some warts, that were evident from time to time, but overall you did a heck of a job for us. I'm a little let down that you did not re-sign with us with the difference being minimal and the Brewers set up to compete for many years. Regardless, I'm happy you are a not a Brewer for 12m per for the next four/five years, as I think DM can make better use of that money. I think you are in for some tough times in Cincy, but I wish you well vs. the Cubs, Cards, and Astros. Do not expect a warm welcome when you come back to MP. Although you probably deserve a decent ovation, I don't think you'll get one as you chose a few dollars over contending. Your choice in that regard....and for the record I will not boo you, but I will not discourage anyone who feels compelled to do so.

 

As for DM...I think he is totally plaing possum with Gagne...I think he will be closing games for us in April at about 6m per year. Randy Winn in LF (Vargas and TGJ), Fuentes for Cappy, and Big Ben to a contract extension (4 yrs 54M) would make me a very excited fan for next year and beyond.

 

Weeks

Wynn

"Man Crush" Braun

Prince

Hart

Hall

Hardy

Kendall

 

Sheets

Yo

Villy

Suppan

Bush

 

Gagne

Fuentes

T-bow

McClung

Wise

Parra

Shouse

 

Gross

Dillon

Counsell

Miller

Nix

 

I do wear blinders though admittedly http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[Tbadder]

About the only thing I disagree with in this thread is the disparaging of the Reds chances, and how good the team is. By the year's end I thought they were clearly better than the Crew. Adding Cordero is going to strengthen them short term and I fully expect them to finish in front of the Brewers next year. Having said that, I also believe they've weakened themselves long term, and the Crew are still way, way ahead of the Reds in that aspect.

 

Of course this could all change with moves and such to come. But so far we remain a team that:

A) blew a big lead against a mediocre club

B) barely finished over .500

C) have gotten weaker in the off season

 

Now, if this was the strategy, I endorse it and think we should stay the course. But if we fully expected to compete on the free agent market and were counting on signing Coco as our #1 priority, then that means Melvin and Mark have blown it.

 

My guess is that Fuentes or Cordero or Riske are all going to stay put. In fact, if the Brewers are not 100% certain they'll win 91 to 93 games I wouldn't even concern myself with a closer; I'd be working on a young catcher, a big left-handed bat, defense, etc. I'd look for long term solutions, get all the ducks in a row, and then cherry pick the best closer available, overpay if I must, and make my run at a pennant so I could get squashed in the Series.

[twobrewers]

(Edit: I see Colby beat me to the punch with the 'Carlos V. as closer' idea. Curse my slow, deliberate typing.)

 

I beat both of you awhile back when we were talking about who the closer would be in 2008. I had Carlos V as my choice.

 

He may not have the "closer" stuff - but he just has the mentality if a closer. Plus he has experience in the pen.

 

That said, I would be sad to see him leave the rotation, if it could be avoided. But I would prefer to keep Bush in the rotation and Carlos V as closer rather than vice vesa.

[Team Canada]

Oh he's going to get booed his agent says he truly wants to return to Milwaukee and then the Brewers offer basically the same contract that he ended up taking from the Reds and he deserves to get booed.

 

Darn right. Cordero's an idiot, unless he really thinks the Reds have a better future than the Brewers. I'm a little surprised our offer was that high, and that we were willing to go 5 years (although club option is risk free). Oh well. It also sucks that we don't get any first rounders.

 

As for CV, I think I'd much rather have him as 6-8 innings (if he's not starting) than bound by definition to pitching the ninth.

 

[Blazer25]

Closers are made, not born. (Doesn't anybody remember Moneyball?)

Yup and all those World Series trophies on Billy Beane's mantle right?...wait...none...really?...whoops...http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/frown.gif

 

 

We lost our 2 best relief pitchers in a week. I don't care how overrated you think a closer is, the Brewers got worse as a team. If last year's off-season tells us anything it's that bullpen depth is hard to come by.

 

DM just made it that much tougher. Instead of the need to add 1-2 reliable arms to the pen the Brewers now need to add 3-4. Not good.

 

So far this off-season:

1. Worse/Sideways at C

2. Worse in the bullpen

3. More draft picks

 

Starting to look like the early 90's...hopefully December is better.

[brewdude15]

This sucks! I just bought a Cordero jersey tee last week at Kohls. Luckily it was on clearance and I only wasted $5. But anyway...I was infuriated at first, when I saw it on the bottom line of ESPN. I immediately felt the urge to vent my frustration here, but as always, the folks here posted facts that comforted me, and calmed me down a bit. I now come to the conclusion that this was indeed a smart move, but I'm worried about the future. DM needs to make quite a few transactions to fill 3 needs. He needs to aquire at least 2, preferably 3 RP's to protect our bullpen (obviously -- I'm thinkin the re-signing of Ray King?). I'm hoping he pulls the trigger and trades for a closer (I don't care who it is, they can't be much worse than what we already have). Hopefully we can aquire Chad Cordero, so I won't have completely wasted my $5. He needs to fill the need for a utility IF (to replace Graffy/Koskie). I like the idea of bringing up Rottino to be the backup at 3B, but I'd still like to see 1 IF signed for some more backup. And lastly, he needs to fill a need a LF, because frankly, I don't feel comfortable with a Dillon/Mench/Gross platoon. This is the outlook of the team I wish to see on opening day, next year:

C- Kendall (I actually don't wish this, it's just that he's pretty much locked up for being the starter)
1B- Fielder (obviously)
2B- Weeks (obviously, again)
SS- Hardy (" ")
3B- Braun (need I say more?)
LF- (PTBNL)
CF- Hall (hoping for the best, next year)
RF- Hart
BN- Dillon
BN- Counsell
BN- Gross
BN- Miller
BN- Rottino

SP- Sheets
SP- Gallardo
SP- Villanueva
SP- Suppan
SP- Capuano/Bush (whoever isn't traded towards one of our needs)

LR- Parra
LR- Choate/(PTBNL)
MR- Wise
MR Lefty 1- Shouse
MR Lefty 2- King
SU- Fuentes/Riske/(PTBNL)
CL- C. Cordero

Please let me know what y'all think.

EDIT: I forgot that we signed Randy Choate, so I inserted him into the picture as a LR. I also realize that my rotation is somewhat of a problem, because it has potentially 0 lefties in it. This is also a problem I think that needs to be taken care of.

[Kurt]

Am I the only one that thinks closers are a dime a dozen? Sure an established closer is going to cost huge money but great new closers are created each year...(re: Turnbow 2005) Sure, I'm being way too positive but it's much better then giving 40+ Million to a guy that is going to tank two years into his four year contract. I just think it's pretty easy to find a guy that does half as good as Coco at a 3/4 of his contact.

[TheBrewer]

I think that Melvin obviously wanted to re-sign Cordero, but at the same time I don't think he's sweating. Think Kolb, Turnbow, Cordero. While you coul dmake a case they didn't last etc, but they've been viable parts when productive. I think he'll find a closer somewhere or another and he'll flousish. I think he's be more intune to finding that special someone in house, but a trade can't be ruled out.

 

As far as Coco going to CIN. This was a kid that we brought over from TEX where he was worth nothing pretty much. He flourished in MIL. He stated he sincerly wanted to return and come back. He really sincerly liked MIL. He goes to CIN a divison rival for an extra million a year, and stomps on his chances of competing in the near future. While I'm relived inside that he didn't re-sign cause we can use that money elsewhere and I'm confident he'll find a replacement, though at the same time Melvin's intent was to truely sincerly re-sign Coco and he spurned us for a couple extra million. Will I boo him if I see him in person at a game in MIL, Yes. He did great while here, but when a guy says such great things about an organization, and then leaves for an extra few million seriously. If there was something more to it, like Yost, of if he had an issue, he should've opend his mouth to Doug and resolved it and much less not tell the MIL fans how much he loves MIL.

 

My two cents.

[Oldcity]

Closers are made, not born. (Doesn't anybody remember Moneyball?)

Yup and all those World Series trophies on Billy Beane's mantle right?...wait...none...really?...whoops...http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/frown.gif

If you're judging success by just World Series titles, you're really setting yourself up for disappointment.

 

[shelmark]

What's up with Vargas? I recall when Jose Mesa was an average starting pitcher and he was sent to the pen. Maybe that could work with Vargas. I'm just fishing here. I do not want Villy in the pen.

[MessiahRp]

What's up with Vargas? I recall when Jose Mesa was an average starting pitcher and he was sent to the pen. Maybe that could work with Vargas. I'm just fishing here. I do not want Villy in the pen.

 

I completely agree here. Villy's a pretty good starter who paid serious dues earning that spot in the rotation. I happen to think he, Gallardo, a healthy Sheets, a rebounding Cappy and Suppan will make a pretty good starting five.

 

I also think Vargas was a pretty good pitcher until he hit the 5th inning. In shorter outings he might actually excel in that role.

 

There's not a lot of free agent options but David Riske's been pretty good for almost his entire career and is a cheap and decent option who IMO would be an upgrade to what we got with Linebrink who has slipped alot in the past two years.

 

Honestly I'd be very happy to include Turnbow in some sort of deal and get him out of Milwaukee. I'm still not thrilled with his whining over how Milwaukee fans boo him when he blows leads constantly and I don't think anybody wants to stare down the option of Turnbow in too many close games where he has to hold a lead.

 

Sign Riske, maybe acquire a Fuentes, move Vargas to the pen for short relief, make Bush the long reliever/spot starter and dump Turnbow.

 

We didn't really overpay for Jason Kendall did we? I know that's another thread but I never saw a definitive link that said the deal was official. I hope not.

 

I'd personally love to ship Estrada off to whereever Turnbow goes but Kendall is not the answer.

 

Anybody think with the lack of interest in Andruw Jones that he might become a possible option at far less money than Boras thinks he would get? Then we could move Hall to one corner spot, Hart to the other and not have to worry about Hall being as much of a defensive liability in Center.

 

Heck I'd like to see how Braun could adjust to a corner OF position and put Hall back at third.

 

But that's just me.

 

Doesn't seem like a whole lot of FA options on the table for the Crew.

 

Rp

[bklynbrewcrew]

The Brewers problems come from the fact that this organization hasnt produced any good young power bullpen arms. If we had guys like that we wouldnt have to even think twice about offering Cordero a huge contract. Good teams need one of two things; either a lock down closer like Papelbon, Nathan, or Francisco Rodriguez or they need good young power arms like Betancourt or Marmol to make up for shaky closers like Borowski and Dempster. Unfortunately at this time the Brewers have neither, this team has a bullpen complete with all retreads like Turnbow and Mota. This team cant afford to have Turnbow as closer and Mota as a main setup guy pitching in high leverage situations. These are two awful pitchers and if Melvin is going to just put together a bullpen full of guys like this we will be in big trouble. This team is looking more and more like Melvin's Texas teams; explosive offense and no pitching. At this point I have no confidence in Melvin putting together a good bullpen and that can really kill this teams chances of winning the division next year. I also dont believe in giving up guys like Hall and Parra for an average closer like Chad Cordero. In summation the reason we are in this dire situation is because the team just hasnt produced any top flight young power relievers.

[trwi7]

I'd personally love to ship Estrada off to whereever Turnbow goes but Kendall is not the answer.

Uhh we already traded Estrada to the Mets for Guillermo Mota.

[Fatter than Joey]

As far as Coco going to CIN. This was a kid that we brought over from TEX where he was worth nothing pretty much.

 

We traded one of the best hitting LFers in MLB to get Cordero. He had good value.

 

He goes to CIN a division rival for an extra million a year, and stomps on his chances of competing in the near future.

 

I don't understand why we are getting mad at Cordero for signing with the Reds, it is just coincidence that

the Reds (a division rival) turned out to be the highest bidder.

 

Furthermore I don't know why we need to question his "loyalty" -- 4 million is still a chunk of money. The difference

between the Reds and the Brewers is ~%10 -- it seems prudent to me.

 

In summation the reason we are in this dire situation is because the team just hasnt produced any top flight young power relievers.In summation the reason we are in this dire situation is because the team just hasnt produced any top flight young power relievers.

 

This is a concern for sure.

[sveumrules]

4/42 seems ridiculous to me but i guess as the going rate for a "proven" closer i wouldn't have been too upset if coco took our offer. the fact that he took that extra million a year to go wear the red stockings though is mind boggling to me. i could have seen if it was the cubbies or another contender, but the red stockings?

at the same time, this quote from cordero in the sporting news article was pretty interesting, i thought. "I would have liked to stay in Milwaukee, but it's not up to me. We will see what happens with the management and the owners of the Brewers, because we are willing to hear their offers." kinda makes it sound like bean stringfellow wears the proverbial pants.

i trust fully that melvin will address the bullpen/closer situation(s) during the winter meetings. at the same time, i hope any deals he makes are more in line with the moves from earlier in his tenure (po/c lee & the sexson/overbay trades) than in line with say the linebrink trade. i understand the perceived necessity of that trade at the time, but i still feel like we could have gotten way more for will inman than 25.3 innings of ultimately meaningless, albeit better than league average relief. at the same time a first, two sandwiches and three second round picks in the hands of jack z have me excited for june.

(edit: bolded quote)

[Bernie Crewer]

"I don't understand why we are getting mad at Cordero for signing with the Reds, it is just coincidence that

the Reds (a division rival) turned out to be the highest bidder."

 

Not ripping on you, but I think the reason we all are a bit stunned is the things CoCo stated about liking Milw. and wanting to be here. No doubt someone who says all warm and fuzzy things about a contending team seemingly would stay if the money being offered was similar, which in this case it was very similar.

 

"Furthermore I don't know why we need to question his "loyalty" -- 4 million is still a chunk of money. The difference

between the Reds and the Brewers is ~%10 -- it seems prudent to me."

 

Technically, it was 3 million over 5 years or about 5% or about $600k per year...to go to the Reds, a divisional rival no less. Prudent? I guess, but when you've stated you're so happy in one place, and want to be there...5% raise just doesn't seem justifiable to me. I think Francisco misled the Milwaukee fans and was all about going to the highest bidder, which is his right by all means, but he really kind of slapped us a bit. I agree with the earlier poster who brought up Carlos Lee's deal. I had no problem with him leaving for that deal, as it was clearly not something we could do.

 

Anyhow, I may be in the minority here, but I'm pretty happy with my job presently and I can tell you I would not leave for a close competitor in the industry for a 5% raise, relocate, and leave an organization that I publicly stated I had genuine interest in. Probably a bad example, but ask yourself the same question if the situation presented iteself. 15 - 20%, now I'd have to consider that...but 5-10...nope, nada. I'll take joy in each blown save he coughs up to the Crew...and yes I'm a bit bitter at the moment http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[endaround]

Not it wasn't over 5 years. Its $5 million spread out over 4 years when you include the buyout. and again without knowing how Milwaukee structured the contract, you have no idea what the difference is. Look at Suppan deal, he's getting $8 million this year with $12.5 over the next two. You know he'll be shopped after 2008.

[PrinceFielder28]

I have sat and thought about this since i found out yesterday and the more I have thought about it the happier I am. If we are going to stay competitive we can't be paying a 30 plus year old closer that much money. This is very similar to the Lee situation, If we sign him to that huge contract our entire future is put in limbo. We have to much young talent that will need to be resigned in the future. We have found closers before such as Turnbow, Wickman, and others. Why can't we do that again? Have faith in Doug and all will be alright!

[Invader3K]

For everyone who complains when former Brewers get booed in Miller Park, you're in for disappointment the next time the Reds are in Milwaukee, that's for sure. I'll be leading it on.

 

In the end, while I am a bit disapointed, the Brewers have had three very effective All-Star closers in the span of four years. No reason the Brewers can't find someone else again.

[aracko]

All this means is that there is an opportunity for McClung, Vargas, Bush, and TBOW to really step up and help this team. Personally I think its a lock that Turnbow is the closer. Afterall thats really what he is getting paid to do.

[Bernie Crewer]

58 (4 years @ 46m with an 12m option) less 55 (4 years @ 42m with a 13m option) = 3m over 5 years is how I came to the figures I used. Perhaps it was slightly different at 4 years, but the point I was trying to make is that the raise he got from the Reds was minimal considering his supposed preference to stay in Milwuakee, which I think we can safely say was disingenious at a minimum.

 

Pretty sure Coco does not care if it was front loaded or back loaded, as the first four years are all guaranteed no matter where he is, as it Soup's deal.

 

My question stands...would you leave a job you are very happy with (alledgedly) to go to a competitor, relocate, etc. for a 5-10% raise? I for one would not, and maybe I'm in the minority.

[PeaveyFury]

From Brewers.com:

 

Brewers general manager Doug Melvin was told Thursday by agent Bean Stringfellow that Cordero had chosen Cincinnati.

 

"They said it was substantially more than ours. That's what I was told," Melvin said. "We were prepared to make him the highest-paid [reliever] behind [Mariano] Rivera and Billy Wagner. It would have been slightly lower than Wagner....If we would have been at $44 [million] or $45 [million], would he have chosen us? I don't know. We never got the opportunity to go there. [stringfellow] never came to us and said, 'Will you go there?' We had people who thought we were bidding against ourselves last week."

 

I think this quote is pretty telling. There's no way a player who wants to come back to his current team and has a higher offer elsewhere doesn't come back to his team and say, 'hey, we've got an offer that's a million per higher- would you be willing to match that?'......... unless, of course, he's not actually interested in returning to said team. It's not like they were light-years apart.

 

http://milwaukee.brewers.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071123&content_id=2306889&vkey=news_mil&fext=.jsp&c_id=mil