Estrada Traded to the Mets for Guillermo Mota

[LouisEly]

Sure Estrada had a little pop in his bat but he also had a .296 obp...and (is) as slow as molasses on the base paths

 

Name 10 catchers in the league who do not fit that description; if you can, then list what it would take to acquire them via trade and/or salary. Look what the Braves got for Saltalamacchia, and he hasn't even proven himself in the majors yet.

 

Also, I'm not real intrigued that our catcher will hit a HR every 350 AB's, or so....

 

At least now we'll have an idea #8 hitter.... Someone who's patient enough to draw the walks given to him, and someone who can move over on mediocre bunts.

 

Isn't the knock on Gwynn that he has no power, and thus shouldn't be a starter? So if Kendall has no power, then what is stopping pitchers from going after him like people suggest will happen with Gwynn, and why should Kendall be a starter then? And I don't know where this drawing walks thing comes from, because he had a .301 OBP last year. Congratulations - he takes walks but when he puts the bat on the ball he grounds out to 2nd; at least when Estrada puts the bat on the ball he occasionally does something. You can say, "well, look at the second half of the season..." - well, I'm sure if you looked at half the season for Estrada it would look better too. Bottom line is you play a full season, not a half season, and Kendall's OBP last year was .301 and Estrada's was .296, so please explain to me how that would be a significant upgrade.

 

For those of you who are excited about getting rid of Estrada, who are probably the same people who were excited about getting rid of Chad Moeller... and Gary Bennett... and Paul Bako... and Raul Cassanova... and Henry Blanco... and hey, aren't most of those guys still in the league? Fact is there are no more than 10 above-average catchers in the league with decent power, OBP, and defensive skills, and they will command an arm and a leg in either talent for a trade or free-agent dollars. So pick your poison - $10M per year for an above-average catcher, or another Inman-Thatcher-Garrison trade to acquire one. Until you are willing to accept either one, quit complaining about how bad the Brewers catchers are.

[Oldcity]

Isn't the knock on Gwynn that he has no power, and thus shouldn't be a starter? So if Kendall has no power, then what is stopping pitchers from going after him like people suggest will happen with Gwynn, and why should Kendall be a starter then?

Kendall is a catcher who hits like a catcher. Gwynn is an outfielder who hits like a catcher.

[sbrylski]

Isn't the knock on Gwynn that he has no power, and thus shouldn't be a starter?

 

Gwynn doesn't play catcher. There are a lot of options better than Gwynn, none better than Kendall.

 

What we have here in Kendall is not a very good option, but he's the best option available. So naturally, as Brewer fans, we will either like it or force ourselves to like it. Its what we do, we're fans.

[SoCalBrewfan]

Obviously the 5.76 is the outlier there though. The key to Mota seems to be keeping the BB's down and that is something that the Brewers in general do pretty well under Maddux. I think Mota is a tough nut to crack because he keeps switching teams mid season, I'm not sure exactly what we are getting. I'll still take my chances with him over some of the other chuckle heads we have in the bullpen.

 

Yeah, but he pitched poorly in Shea, with the Mets' defense behind him...he was even worse on the road last year. It could look very bad here even if he pitches better. But with the suspension he obviously had a year that was strange...he started slowly and may never have gotten the chance to right the ship. So at least there's some reason for optimism for the moment, I guess.

 

I think X ellence above said that Melvin wanted to get something for Estrada, rather than just non-tendering him. (And argued that Melvin did so in order to justify the Davis deal...which is a reasonable criticism if true, though I'm not sure whether that's the case.) It is arguable at this point whether adding Mota is worth less than just dumping Estrada and freeing up his money. However, I think the JC Romero deal illustrates the price of crappy veteran relievers...he got 3/$12M with an option, and has some serous blemishes. A (perceived) quality non-closer like Riske must be asking for more. Last year Gagne got $6M when it wasn't even clear if his arm was attached. So Melvin is filling in the pen, and looking at serious commitments for anyone good. In that context, a one-year deal for a few million for Mota is a short-term risk, and isn't so much money that you can't just pull the plug if the guy is toast.

 

And of course teams dump pitchers all the time, only to see them rebound elsewhere...Romero stank for a year and a half, until hooking up with the Phillies, who got him off the scrap heap. It's the nature of pitching.

 

If folks are disappointed in the diminished value of Estrada, they should be aware that everyone can see what we see. The guy's worn out his welcome in several places in the last few years. Some national column quoted a scout, saying how fat and lazy Estrada looked. At one point he was trying to take a swing at Yost last year, wasn't he? If the guy's producing, those things get overlooked to some extent, but when he's coming off a down year, with the press clippings he's got, and the non-tender deadline looming, what do you expect?

[JJHardy7]

Side note: Estrada wasn't a bad return on Doug Davis. I'm not saying it turned out like we dreamed it would. But y'all should recall that while Davis was arby-eligible last winter, anything other than a one-year contract was going to price DD at a ridiculous level. So the Brewers were wise enough to walk away from that unmanageable dollar request & to net Estrada in return. The scenario made a lot of sense at the time. At the time most agreed it was a very good return for Davis and overall upgrade to the lineup.

 

DD actually signed under market in my opinion. I believe he got something like 3 years 21 million...looking back I would've signed him to that and not made the trade -- even those his walks really annoy me.

[endaround]

Also Davis did not need to be signed to a multiyear deal. Thats more Bill Schroeder misinformation. The Brewers could have signed him to a one year deal. That said I understand that part of the deal, the Eveland for Vargas part made no sense. And Varga's FIP was 5.08 compared to Davis' 4.68. And the biggest difference, Vargas had 134 innings compared to Davis' 192.

[dpapo]

Some more comments/information from the Mets Web site,

 

"Melvin, speaking by phone from Milwaukee, said he and Minaya never had discussed Estrada before Tuesday and that he hadn't spoken Minaya at the General Managers Meetings earlier this month.

Melvin indicated it was possible the Brewers would have non-tendered Estrada next month rather than go to salary arbitration with him. The Mets, who haven't had an arbitration case go to a hearing since 1992, inherited a player whose base salary for 2007 was $3.4 million. Melvin predicted Estrada's 2008 salary would "begin with a four," making him too expensive for the Brewers.

Milwaukee is looking for a replacement for Estrada, who started 111 games as the Brewers catcher last season and appeared in nine others. Melvin indicated Lo Duca is not among the catchers he is pursuing, and now with Estrada in place, the Mets have no need for Lo Duca, their regular catcher for the last two seasons.

Lo Duca earned $6.25 million last season and was seeking a raise and a contract covering more years than the Mets were willing to afford him. Now, even if Estrada were to be awarded $5 million in arbitration, the Mets would be saving money -- and divesting themselves of Mota saves them $3.2 million.

"We know what we're getting in Mota," Melvin said.

He called the exchange "one of those deals that serves both clubs."

One of Mota's '07 teammates, contacted Tuesday night, suggested the trade will benefit Mota and the Mets. "He wasn't comfortable pitching at home. The booing got to him," the player said. "It wasn't going to work out."

Mota produced a 2-2 record and 5.76 ERA in 52 games innings with the Mets. He allowed 63 hits -- eight of them home runs -- and 18 walks in 59 1/3 innings. He converted none of three save opportunities. His season began late because he served a 50-game suspension for violating Major League Baseball's ban of performance-enhancing drugs. The Mets signed Mota to the two-year deal despite the suspension and the righty's role in their loss to the Cardinals in the 2006 National League Championship Series.

Mota will be remembered for shaking off Lo Duca's call for a 1-2 changeup and throwing a fastball that Scott Spiezio hit for a game-tying triple in the Mets' Game 2 loss of that NLCS."

 

Just basically confirms that Estrada probably wasn't going to be offered arbitration and the Brewers basically took what they could get for him. Also sounds like the Brewers are going to be paying Mota's entire salary for this upcoming year. Which also makes the comments about Estrada being too expensive for them seem suspect. I think if he was set to make 2 million the Brewers still would have gotten rid of him. Maybe Melvin was just trying to avoid getting into the off the field stuff, so he brings up the issue of salary. Also sounds like Mota needed a change of scenery, maybe that will help.

 

http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20071120&content_id=2305478&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym

[jwill535]

calling a game is pretty much over rated. Most older pitchers will call they're own game(shaking off till they get what they want). Its with the younger pitchers that the catcher can guide him through an inning. If it was such a problem then Maddux could call the game from the bench, alot of college and minor league coaches do.

[twobrewers]

There are a lot of people who seem determined to argue that Estrada's numbers are close enough to Kendall that the movement at catcher will be lateral.

 

If this trade tells us anything, its that Estrada wasn't traded for lack of production. He was a poor teammate. And since, none of us know the extent of this problem - it is really impossible to judge Estrada in '08 vs Kendall in '08.

[JohnBriggs12]

While I'm glad Estrada is gone I thought his comments were very revealing. First off he didn't always see eye to eye with Maddux. As someone who thinks Maddux is vastly overrated, I certainly concur with Estrada. He also said he worked fine with the "pitchers that carried us down the stretch". What pitchers "carried" them down the stretch?

 

The young guys, Gallardo and Villanueva, and Suppan.

[Tbadder]

Kendall improves our situational offense. I bet he's much better at: A) letting people steal in front of him, and B) moving runners over.

It's well documented that Kendall will help us push the opposing starter's pitch count higher--that has some small value.

Kendall can pitch hit in situations where base runners are needed or double plays will destroy a rally. Estrada hitting in those situations was the worst.

Kendall, as bad as he is, is still an upgrade defensively. Though not much I agree.

As to the loss of power. I think this team has enough power to win a World Series; the small loss here won't kill us.

Can we switch Gwynn to catcher?

If we don't sign Kendall, Munson/Rivera is as good as Estrada/Miller.

God, the more I think of it:I'm a genius Gwynn as catcher!!!

Okay--it wasn't really my idea.

[lukevan]

"He wasn't comfortable pitching at home. The booing got to him," the player said.

 

At least he won't have to worry about booing in Milwaukee.

 

It sounds like Melvin had a really quick trigger on this one, which probably means he wasn't expecting any other offers for Estrada. I don't mind taking a chance on Mota even though he's not cheap. Give him a chance to knock your socks off and if he doesn't so be it. With the amount of help our bullpen is going to need, I don't mind Melvin at least giving the team multiple options to figure out what will work.

[Fear The Chorizo]

Basically this trade boils down to the Brewers knowing that Estrada would be non-tendered, and the GM making a trade that ships a player away they were going to let walk a few weeks from now for a retread bullpen arm that at least gives the team another reliever with MLB experience.

It's not a trade that will significantly improve either team, it looks more like a refuse for refuse swap with each team hoping a change of scenery will help the player they're acquiring.

I'm more interested to see how the Catching position gets handled now in Milwaukee - I do like the idea of having Rivera on the roster, and adding Kendall isn't the worst thing they could do - I'd also be a big fan of trading for Laird down in Texas, too.

[bigredrobbo]

Apparently "Guillermo Mota" is Spanish for "Bag O' Balls"...

[MJLiverock]

I'll admit Kendall walks more than Estrada but I keep reading that he is going to help wear pitchers out with his patience.

 

Colbyjack posted these stats on an ealier thread: careet pitchers/plate appearance Kendall 3.90, Estrada 3.22 so a difference of about .7 pitchers per PA. Is that really meaningful? On average if Kendall faces a pitcher 3 times in a game he will force 2.1 extra pitches, I don't think that is going to make much of a difference in wearing out an opposing pitcher. I guess it its baby steps for the Brewers but still not that meaningful.

 

One other question. What is with all of the Laird love? Is he a defensive whiz? I haven't seen him play much so I really don't know about his defense but his offense looks horrendous. He plays in a hitters park and put up a whopping .278 OBP last year. He hit LH's well in 2006 which helped his stats but regressed in 2007 and has never done well against RH pitching, he's a career .277 OBP against RHers with a .615 OPS.

[Fatter than Joey]

Which also makes the comments about Estrada being too expensive for them seem suspect.

 

I bet Kendall gets paid as much or close to what Estrada is going to get paid -- Certainly Mota+Kendall will be an increase of payroll over Estrada

[brewmann04]

I have to admit i am stoked about the 2 additions to our Bullpen.

1st Choate and now Mota.

[rluzinski]

He had 7 k/9 and 2.2 bb/9 with a 44% GB rate which is a 4.32 xFIP. Not great but he will have a place in our bullpen I'm sure.

 

When NL relievers averaged a 4.06 ERA for 2007, that 4.32 xFIP doesn't impress me. It's hard for me to figure out why Melvin would be interested in a below average reliever for the price tag. As others have said, it's almost like Melvin's pride had more to do with this trade than anything else. He may have traded for a player with negative value (relative to his salary, IMO) in order to get something for a previous mistake. He could have simply non tendered Estrada and cut his loses.

[brewers255]

Mets are actually thinking about non-tendering Estrada. He's a fallback on the options there going after.

[Fatter than Joey]

Mets are actually thinking about non-tendering Estrada.

 

This would not surprise me -- and would be a brilliant move on their part, (assuming they get a different C) to get the Brewers to pay Mota.

[MNBrew]

One different way to look at it: The presence of Mota in Milwaukee means we'll probably see less of Greg Aquino.

 

That would be a plus.

[jackalope02ca]

Maybe Melvin knows something we don't and Mota is juiced again. That way he can be suspended for most of the year, save us salary, and be fresh for the stretch drive!!

[TooLiveBrew]

Kendall, even after his poor Oakland portion of '07, still is a .297 career hitter.

I think we need to be careful to not just gloss over the most recent sample of Kendell's offensive game just because numbers he put up in his prime help to offset how bad he was for the majority of 2007. He's older for an MLB C, and it's important to not gloss over the fact that his days of batting .300 are likely behind him. The thing that's nice about him, though, is if he can't post a .290+ BA, his OBP value is not lost, like Estrada.

[RU Rah Rah]

I think we need to be careful to not just gloss over the most recent sample of Kendell's offensive game just because numbers he put up in his prime help to offset how bad he was for the majority of 2007. He's older for an MLB C, and it's important to not gloss over the fact that his days of batting .300 are likely behind him. The thing that's nice about him, though, is if he can't post a .290+ BA, his OBP value is not lost, like Estrada.

Totally agree. I posted this in the Kendall thread: My only concern is that he was pretty awful in the first half last year with Oakland -- .226/.261/.281 over 80 games and 292 AB's. (He didn't even get over the Mendoza line until mid-June.) Those aren't typical numbers for him, and he did manage to pick things up when he went over to the Cubs, but I'm not banking on him having a renaissance at the plate at age 34.

[Ennder]

His K/BB numbers were way off in those oakland games too and then the games with the cubs pretty much matched his 2005/2006 numbers exactly. I'm not a huge fan of kendall but I think he is likely to be an upgrade over estrada.