Re-signing Ben Sheets

[DuWayne Steurer]

Sheets put up ace numbers in 2005 and 2006, he just had a higher ERA because of starts he left while injured. I just dunno if he's an ace from 2008 on or if the injuries have caused problems long term.

In 2005 Sheets had 2 DL stints. The last start before his first DL appearance, he went 6 innings, giving up 4 runs. In the last start before his 2nd DL appearance, he pitched 9 innings, giving up only 2 runs. I don't think you can blame those for a whole heck of a lot. He wasn't bad in '05 (3.33 ERA), but you'd like to get more than 22 starts from a guy putting up solid # 2 numbers.

In '06, he only left one game early, and in that game he gave up 7 ER in 2.1 innings. That'll cause a skew, but you can't blame a full season of a 3.82 ERA (still not bad of course) on one rough outing.

[endaround]

You can blame it on a lot of bad luck. Sheets was great in 2006. His ERA just didn't reflect it. He has a BABIP of .344, much higher thna anypoint in his career and much higher than the league average.

[Robideaux]

I don't understand the "We don't need Sheets because Gallardo will turn into a #1 starter argument." Last time I checked, most MLB pitching rotations have more than 1 pitcher.

 

Would you say: "The Brewers don't really need Fielder because Braun will turn into a all-star power hitter"? I doubt it. Obviously, two great hitters are better than one. Same with pitchers--I just checked the rulebook and there is nothing that says that a team is limited to one "ace" (whatever that means).

[JJHardy7]

I've posted this before, but ever since Sheets was in Beloit his own teammates have questioned his work ethic and the shape he would show up at. There are players inside the organization that don't think he takes care of himself.

It's been pointed out at least twice now that Sheets never pitched at Beloit. I know you have connections in Nashville, JJHardy7, but you're going to have to back it up accurately, at least.

Sorry about this. Maybe I wasn't clear or it slipped my mind, but Sheets worked out at Beloit with the guys and stayed with the team for a bit. He stayed in Beloit with a guy I know and then roomed with him in 1999 in Stockton.

[logan82]

I don't understand the "We don't need Sheets because Gallardo will turn into a #1 starter argument." Last time I checked, most MLB pitching rotations have more than 1 pitcher.

 

Would you say: "The Brewers don't really need Fielder because Braun will turn into a all-star power hitter"? I doubt it. Obviously, two great hitters are better than one. Same with pitchers--I just checked the rulebook and there is nothing that says that a team is limited to one "ace" (whatever that means).

I can't explain how tired I am with the whole "Gallardo can take Sheets spot and be our ace" argument. It is like Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a wookie and that does not make sense. Next year Gallardo will be taking Gallardo's spot in the rotation. Suppan will be taking Suppan's spot in the rotation. Villanueva will be taking Villanueva's spot in the rotation. The 2nd best of Parra/Vargas/Capuano/Bush would take Sheets spot and there is no way any of those guys are closer to as good as Sheets.

[JJHardy7]

This is where I think those who have emotional ties to Sheets (he's been "our guy" for a long time, so I understand it) are taking this discussion a different direction. I think most are saying the fact that it's hard to count on Sheets makes it difficult to give him all the cash.

 

I haven't seen too many posts stating that Parra/Vargas/Capuano/Bush are better. It's a completely different topic. I don't think it makes sense to give Sheets all the cash when I don't think I can count on him. I think I could count on Vargas/Capuano/Bush to stay injury free before Sheets. That I do know.

[logan82]

Would you rather have Sheets pitch 160 innings and Vargas/Capuano/Bush/Parra pitch 50 with the rest of the year in the pen or Vargas/Capuano/Bush/Parra pitch 210? In the end keeping Sheets leaves one of those guys in the pen for most of the year, strengthening our pen.

[JJHardy7]

If money was not an issue, I'd keep Sheets. Would I tie up that much money to someone who I can't count on? If I'm a big market team, yes. If I'm Milwaukee, no. I guess I haven't heard what he wants or if he even wants to stay in Milwaukee, so this is a lot of speculation.

 

I think his injuries have created huge problems in terms of filling the gaps (in the rotation and bullpen). I'd rather trade him now or let the 2008 season play out and see what happens. There's no way I extend him today. Why risk it?

 

I don't think we've gotten the production out of Sheets we thought we would through his first 3 years of the extension. Will we this year? We really don't know that. Will he be hurt all year? We don't know. I think there are way to many issues involving Sheets right now that makes signing him before the season a long shot at best.

 

I know there is love for Sheets because he is "our guy". I'd rather spend money on someone who (IMO) keeps their body in shape and does what it takes to try and start every 5th game. I don't think Sheets does. Look at what JJ and Hart did this past off-season. They put on more muscle and really reduced their body fat. How good would Sheets be if he got himself on a program and pitched all year? I think all these injuries either makes him the dreaded "injury prone" player or he's out of shape. I don't see any other explanation for them.

[Oldcity]

There's no way I extend him today. Why risk it?

I realize there's some risk, but that may be the only way the Brewers have a chance at keeping him. The closer to free agency he gets, the more expensive he gets. And the less likely he re-signs as well, probably. Like others have mentioned, I don't think there's too big a risk considering the type of injuries he's had. I'd honestly be more concerned if he had the injury history of, say, Manny Parra.

 

[DuWayne Steurer]

Losing Sheets for 10 starts (or so) this year didn't seem to hurt as much as it did in years past, because we had guys like Yo, Villanueva, and even Vargas (who's at least passable as a #5) and Parra filling in for him. In years gone by, we've had to watch guys like Jamie McAndrew, Jimmy Osting, Dave Pember, and Sid Roberson take those starts.

 

We have great depth right now, which is obviously a good thing to have. Going forward though, (and there's threads all over about it), Melvin has talked about dealing from that depth to shore up other areas of need on the team.

 

One of the things being said in this thread is "25 starts of Sheets is still worth quite a bit", to which I'll completely agree (even though I'll contend Sheet is not an "ace")

 

However, who's to say we're going to get 25? Granted, he may go injury free and get 32 starts in, but what happens when one of Benny's "freak injuries" take him out for an entire season?

 

Once again, the argument has been had over and over, but Ben can't stay on the mound consistently, and I'm more afraid that sooner or later one of these injuries is going to be a season ender. Then we get to look forward to a whole year of starts from someone who wasn't good enough to make the rotation.

[logan82]

I wouldn't extend him, I just think we also shouldn't trade him either.

[aracko]

I wish Sheets could get us a guy like Eric Bedard, but thats not even close.

Sheets for Carl Crawford and Shawn Riggans would be a heck of a deal in my opinion. Riggans would have to stay in AAA to work on his plate dicapline but his defense is there and he would provide us something of a guy for 2009. Besides he isnt the centerpiece - that would be Crawford.

[Brawndo the Thirst Mutilat]

The extension Mark Buehrle signed this season was a reported 4 yr/56 mil. The mainstream media treated that deal like a hometown discount. He's made 30 or more starts every year for the past seven years, but I'd rather have Sheets going forward. If Benny would take 4/60 or less, I think it'd be foolish to let him go. It's getting to the point where 10 mil a season is the going rate for lousy veteran starting pitchers. Sheets pitches like an ace when he pitches. If they give Francisco Cordero 4/40 and let Sheets walk next year, I can't think of any word for that other than stupid. Even if Sheets does miss half a season he'd still pitch 40 more innings than an injury-free closer.

[lukevan]

If Sheets has a good (and healthy) season in 08, he'll probably get closer to $19-20 mil per year, whereas we might be able to get him for $14-15 mil per year right now or early in the season. That's the benefit of signing him before he "proves" himself.

[Mr QL]

Trade him and get as much value as you can. (not guys like Mench or Nix either because they're not prospects) Would much rather throw money at our other young players.

[ILuvDaBush]

Remember that if we did sign him to a palatable contract, in this market, you should be able to trade it later. And when Sheets is on, he is a one man wrecking crew, on par with the Great Cy-tana. Furthermore, he makes every hitter earn their way to first, and two seasons ago, he put up one of the highest K/BB rates in the last 100 years. He's an injury risk, yes, but it isn't as if there's structural damage in his arm and shoulder. It's all in his head. Success is in his hands, as long as he doesn't blister. Unless a team comes offering a package similar to what Florida got from Boston (I WANT KEMP!), Sheets now needs to be extended.

[Oldcity]

The thing I get a kick out of is some of the people who are irate that the Brewers didn't break the bank for Cordero are the same people who don't want to keep Sheets. Sheets is far and away a better investment than Cordero.

[Ennder]

I wish Sheets could get us a guy like Eric Bedard, but thats not even close.

 

Sheets for Carl Crawford and Shawn Riggans would be a heck of a deal in my opinion. Riggans would have to stay in AAA to work on his plate dicapline but his defense is there and he would provide us something of a guy for 2009. Besides he isnt the centerpiece - that would be Crawford.

I love Eric Bedard but his injury history lends itself to the injury prone tag much more than Sheets does. Just seemed like an odd name to throw out to get rid of an 'injury prone' player for.

[dvoiss]

If you are going to sign Sheets you have to do it now. If he pitches well this year there is no way he doesn't go free agent and the Brewers won't be able to compete in the market for a staff ace. You know he's gonna command at least 5yr/70mil. If he struggles with injurues he's still gonna find someone to gamble on him at least for 4 years/40 mil which would be too much to pay for him with his health history.

 

The Brewers probably won't be in a position to trade him at the deadline because hopefully they'll be in contention. So I think DM needs to decide this winter what he should do here. He should sign him or trade him before opening day. Either way I think I can live with it (depending on what a trade brings) but I would prefer to sign him.

[sveumrules]

let me start by saying first and foremost, ben sheets is my favorite brewer. his laid back demeanor and the fact that he seems like a huge goofball, put together with his absolutely filthy stuff when he's on top of his game and dealing seals the deal for me. my favorite number (for proof) is that 3.94 career k/bb ratio. good for third among active qualifiers. right behind schilling and pedro and a notch above some dude named santana. who says he isn't an ace?

 

that said, he does have an annoying little injury history. granted, it's never been major or shoulder related which is encouraging. but at the same time...216.7, 220.7, 237, 156.7, 106, 141.3 are his innings since 02.

 

so i think you have essentially two options at this point. trade him now, but only if you get an offer that is just plain sick. clement from sea is somebody i'd be willing to discuss off the top of my head. i'd put the trade scenario at about 10% likelihood being really generous.

 

or, let him get up on that hill for 08 and see what happens. if he's going good and looking healthy at the break, maybe he'll be willing to talk extension at that point. if he gets another (or another series) of little injuries well then maybe he'll be more affordable if we want to bring him back. i'd put this scenario at about 89% likelihood.

 

that leaves 1% for extend him now and i just left that 1% because you never know what's gonna happen. to extend a guy that has missed major time the past three seasons removes a large portion of the motivation he would have to come into camp in tip top shape and put up a full, healthy season in his walk year. i won't get into the topics of sheets's motivation/possible lack thereof or if there is a walk year myth or not but i will close on this...if ben sheets is in fact healthy for 08 there is a very good chance the brewers will be in the postseason and any extra revenue generated from that and another probable attendance record could go a long way towards keeping him.

[recte44]

Offer Sheets 4 years, 48 million, and see what happens. I'd go as high as 4 years, 60 million for him. If he doesn't bite, we trade him and get a bounty. It's a win/win situation and Melvin holds all the cards right now.

[TooLiveBrew]

4/48 wouldn't get you taken seriously. 4/60 would say, 'I'm serious, but I won't go very high.' If you're starting at 4 years, the money can be no less than $65-70 mil. imho for Sheets to take it seriously. The rough part is that the extra (5th) year is what it'd likely take to get things done.

[JimH5]

I don't want to extend Sheets at all. Let him pitch (or nurse another injury) this year and let that performance determine how to proceed.

 

Plus, the idea that the Mitchell report will be out soon makes the idea of needlessly extending a guy PRIOR to that report seem kind of silly. Why not wait for that information before committing big money?

[GenoSeligPrieb]

I keep reading about that potental 3-way, involving Ben Sheets to the Yankees, Jabba the Hutt Chamberlain and Milky Cabrera to Tampa, and Carl Crawford to the Brewers.

 

I'd do that, in a heartbeat, but then again, that's all it is....a rumor.

 

The Mets have also inquired about Sheets, but, like the other New York team, they'd likely have to involve a 3rd team to get the Brewers the #3 hitter they need.

 

Hell, if it were up to me, I'd just use all this salary space, and buy Aaron Rowand to bat 3rd, while bringing in free agents Jeremy Affeldt and David Riske to tag team as closers, and STILL have money left over.

[Diggr14]

4 yrs 65-70 million?

 

You are talking 17.5 mil/ year for a guy that hasnt pitched close to a full season in 3 years. I think Ben Sheets would take 4/48 very seriously, given his injury history and the unknowns of pitching, he could pitch this whole year blow out his elbow in August and get nothing. For a guy to get 48 million now extended/guaranteed is nothing to blink at. The risk alone isn't worth taking for a pitcher IMO to make that plunge at the extra few million per when it could all go down the toilet with one wrong move. Especially for someone like Ben and his recent injury history. 4/48 you shake hands with DM as quickly as possible and focus on baseball for the rest of his career.