Rolen Trade, Latest: Glaus/Rolen swap (reply #795)

[ILuvDaBush]

So Mauer would get kicked off the team? But seriously, the longer Ensberg is out there, the more I think he is going to be the perfect complement to the Brewers' lineup.

[clancyphile]

Wow, that's a huge post for 3 lines. Estrada may be one of the best offensive catchers in MLB(I don't believe it, I think he is average at best), but there were personality conflicts between Estrada and Maddux which was probably a bigger reason for the trade than anything he did on the field.

And the personality issues between Rolen and LaRussa aren't relevant? The Brewers traded Estrada over stuff that seems to be much milder than open sniping.

 

Also when one considers that Estrada is one of the ten best offensive catchers in the majors with the bat, perhaps the only better offensive catchers are Jorge Posada, Victor Martinez, Jason Varitek, Joe Mauer, Brian McCann, Doumit (albeit Doumit is a backup in PIT), Chris Snyder, and Russell Martin, about 9th out of 30 starters at catcher when it comes to the bat, Guillermo Mota is a rather poor return for this.

 

If the Brewers play it cool, they can get Rolen cheap - think Vargas, or at most, a Vargas-Mota combo.

[logan82]

Never said the personality issues between LaRussa and Rolen weren't relavent. I would rather have a 3B that doesn't get along with coach way before a catcher who doesn't.

 

Estrada was 24th in OBP of catchers with at least 300 at bats. 16th in SLG and 21st in OPS. How is that top 10? The guy was average at best offensivley and was a wreck defensivley. Add to that he didn't get along with the coaches and he was going to be gone no matter what. Mota is a one year mistake if he is a mistake. Why trade a $3.2M one year mistake for a 3 year $36M mistake.

 

I don't want Rolen no matter the cost unless the Cardinals pick up at least $12M of his contract.

[TooLiveBrew]

So you pretty much don't want Rolen, huh. That surprises me - is it the injury concerns? The way I see it, even if we could only get 120-ish games from Rolen, that's a huge upgrade. Braun could play there if Scott needed a day off, plus there's Dillon & Counsell in a total pinch. I really feel like this current squad has the depth to help offset the time Rolen may miss. Now, if he were to get seriously injured, that's something that could happen to any player.

[Oldcity]

Plus the fact that Estrada is currently unemployed should show that he's really not valued at all. The Nats preferred Damian Miller.

[KCBrewerfan34]

Let's get this out of our heads, Estrada is UNEMPLOYED!!! The guy has been traded like 5 times and he probably will have to accept a deal close to the minimum, great point as previously stated, we are better off without Estrada on this team!!!

 

 

 

Merry Christmas

[logan82]

So you pretty much don't want Rolen, huh. That surprises me - is it the injury concerns? The way I see it, even if we could only get 120-ish games from Rolen, that's a huge upgrade. Braun could play there if Scott needed a day off, plus there's Dillon & Counsell in a total pinch. I really feel like this current squad has the depth to help offset the time Rolen may miss. Now, if he were to get seriously injured, that's something that could happen to any player.

I just don't want his contract. Part of that is the injury concerns. I really wouldn't have a problem with next year. I am looking down the road 2-3 years from now when most of our core is up for arbitration. I know Sheets drops off, but the less we are commited to the more flexability we will have in the future.

 

The more I think about it, the more I realize that having league average stats for a catcher means you are probably in the bottom third of starting catchers. Starting catchers get a much smaller percentage of at bats than starters at other positions. Imagine what the average SS would have for stats is Counsell level players made 1/3 of the starts league wide. It would really drag down what the average stats for a SS would be.

[Fatter than Joey]

And the personality issues between Rolen and LaRussa aren't relevant?

 

I think that it is a consideration -- however I suspect a new GM isn't going to trade a fan favorite for Vargas, just because TLR and Rolen don't like each other.

 

I'm sure TLR would be happy to see Role sent at a discount -- but I am sure that the price has to be higher than Vargas.

[lukevan]

If the original asking price was Capuano + another MLB-ready player, I doubt the Cards would accept Vargas for Rolen. IMO we'd be lucky to get them down to just Cappy.

[recte44]

Would most people on this board be willing to do Cappy + Gwynn for Rolen + (some cash back)???

[berniebrewer4life]

Would most people on this board be willing to do Cappy + Gwynn for Rolen + (some cash back)???

I would, however the new Cardinal GM seems to think Rolen is the same player he was 4 years ago, so i doubt that would work.

[patrickgpe]

i'd do that. I think we have enough depth to loose capuano and hope he doesn't rebound in a big way and i don't think gwynn is in the long term plans.

[Ennder]

The more I think about it, the more I realize that having league average stats for a catcher means you are probably in the bottom third of starting catchers. Starting catchers get a much smaller percentage of at bats than starters at other positions. Imagine what the average SS would have for stats is Counsell level players made 1/3 of the starts league wide. It would really drag down what the average stats for a SS would be

 

There are about maybe 8 or 9 good C's in all of baseball and almost every other C is league average. Also Counsell was average to above average for a SS last year. He had one of the better defensive lines in baseball last season that offset his offensive issues. The only big problem was so many of the AB's came at 3B instead of 2B or SS.

[Big Reed]

some bad news for brewers fans. larussa and rolen haven't been at each other's neck since the end of the winter meetings. Perhaps their GM gave both a call and told each to keep their feud private and that just like kobe, Rolen isn't going anywhere. It's hard to believe kobe is still a laker, isn't it? well both Kobe and Rolen have no trade clauses. My money is that both disgruntled players stay exactly where they are until their contracts run out.

[yoshii8]

Just because they haven't had any public feuds over the last couple of weeks doesn't mean that Rolen won't be traded.

 

I really don't get the Kobe vs. Rolen comparison, in my mind both situations are totally different. I still believe that Rolen will be traded.

[Big Reed]

Kobe verses rolen comparison.

 

Kobe has a feud with Coach Jackson. Jackson almost quits. Then they make up. then kobe has a fued with the lakers' owner and GM and demands to be traded. then says no, he doesn't want to be traded, then demands to be traded again. the owner tries to trade kobe, but he vetoes every deal saying he doesn't want to go to a team if they give up all their star players to the lakers. the lakers owner says he's not going to just give kobe away for nothing.

 

Rolen has a fued with larussa. Cards ' GM jockety leaves and larussa is about to, but stays. larussa tries to square things wit h rolen, but rolen refuses and demands to be traded rather than play for Larussa. The new cards GM tries to trade rolen, but rolen invokes his no trade clause to squash several potential deals trying to force the GM's hand. the cards GM refuses to just give rolen away. cards ' GM tries to get rolen and larussa to stop their bickering at least publically.

 

To date, neither Kobe or rolen has been traded. they both want out of their current situations, but both have used their veto powers to stop several potential trades. neither one of their GMs is going to give away their Name player. So they are both stuck on what will be mediocre teams.

 

The trade demands for both kobe and Rolen were initiated by Kobe and Rolen and not their respective teams. neither one of their teams really wanted to trade theri player. the only reason the brewers are interested in rolen is because of Rolen and his relationship to Suppan and the hope that if he creates enough havoc, the cards might be willing to give him away at a reduced rate. if rolen was healthy, and had a good relationship with larussa, there would be no trade conversations happening involving Rolen's name.

 

 

I see a lot of similarities between kobe and rolen. they are both players trying to force the hand of their current employers. Kobe wanted the Lakers to fire GM kupchek. Rolen wanted larussa fired. Neither one really wants to leave their team. but they both gave ownership the ultimatum - either he goes or I want out. And so far, both owners have ignored their bluff.

[Oldcity]

Of course Kobe is a franchise player at the peak of his prime while Rolen is about 4 years past his. Also the economics of the NBA are completely different. I see the similarities, but I guess I'm not sure what your point is?

 

Just because Rolen hasn't been traded yet doesn't mean their calling a bluff or anything. I expect Rolen to be traded in January.

[logan82]

Ennder wrote:

There are about maybe 8 or 9 good C's in all of baseball and almost every other C is league average. Also Counsell was average to above average for a SS last year. He had one of the better defensive lines in baseball last season that offset his offensive issues. The only big problem was so many of the AB's came at 3B instead of 2B or SS.

The point I was trying to make and I think you missed is that when you talk about being league average at a position, for most positions that player would be ranked around the middle of the pack, but when you talk about catchers being league average they are going to be ranked lower because of the fact that so many at bats go to backup players.

[yoshii8]

Right, I think we all know the Kobe and Rolen situations, but I don't think that one has anything to do w/ each other. Kobe's Cardinals comparison would be if Pujols asked for a trade. Meaning if they traded him they would have to change the face of the franchise, which wouldn't really be the case w/ Rolen anymore.

[logan82]

the only reason the brewers are interested in rolen is because of Rolen and his relationship to Suppan and the hope that if he creates enough havoc, the cards might be willing to give him away at a reduced rate. if rolen was healthy, and had a good relationship with larussa, there would be no trade conversations happening involving Rolen's name.

I disagree with the first part but agree with the second part. We want Rolen because he is a thirdbaseman and can play defense where our current 3B can't, yet.

[Ennder]

Ennder wrote:

There are about maybe 8 or 9 good C's in all of baseball and almost every other C is league average. Also Counsell was average to above average for a SS last year. He had one of the better defensive lines in baseball last season that offset his offensive issues. The only big problem was so many of the AB's came at 3B instead of 2B or SS.

The point I was trying to make and I think you missed is that when you talk about being league average at a position, for most positions that player would be ranked around the middle of the pack, but when you talk about catchers being league average they are going to be ranked lower because of the fact that so many at bats go to backup players.

Nope I didn't miss it. Most teams backup C's are also league average. Teams just don't carry that defensive specialist backup C like they used to, they generally carry a young C, an old guy who can't play full time or a flawed platoon type as their backup now.

[RobertR]

Estrada ended up ranking 25th in VORP at the catcher position in 2007 with a VORP of only 7.7. Toss in his below average defense and he was a below average starting catcher in 2007. And 2005. With conditioning, injury, and attitude issues. He only has value when his BA is high since he has little in the way of secondary skills and considering his age he's a prime candidate to fall off quickly. There's a reason he's still looking for work.

 

As for Rolen, I think he's still on the block and will be moved before spring training, but the GM at least needs to make the appearance that he got all that he could for him. I suspect that if Rolen is traded to Milwaukee it will be for Capuano and a couple of "prospects" to at least make it look reasonable. St. Louis's rotation is suspect enough that Zach Jackson tossed into the #5 slot might actually be a plus for them.

 

Robert

[logan82]

I would hate to lose Capuano yet. We are going to need arms next year. Vargas I would give up, but I would like to keep Capuano and Bush.

[logan82]

Nope I didn't miss it. Most teams backup C's are also league average. Teams just don't carry that defensive specialist backup C like they used to, they generally carry a young C, an old guy who can't play full time or a flawed platoon type as their backup now.

and league average for a catcher means you would rank around the bottom third of starting catchers in the league whereas if you were league average for most other positions you would rank close to the middle.

League average catcher .257/.318/.394/.712 BA/OBP/SLG/OPS

Estrada .278/.296/.403/.699

 

So by those stats he should be close to the middle of the pack. Yet when you take the 30 catchers with the most at bats, Estrada ranks 8th, 21st, 16th and 24th in those stats.

[DHonks]

In talking with relatives on Christmas, they couldn't understand the Brewers trading Capuano. I said I'd offer the Cards a package of Cappy and Vargas for Rolen, with maybe Gross/Gwynn as a throw-in. But my focus is offering pitching. My relatives seemed to all think it'd be foolish to deal Cappy, as he's even got value to the team as a middle reliever. I tried pointing out that if we want a reliever, we can deal him for 1-2 good relievers that'll likely do better in the bullpen, because his value is still pretty high given that he's a lefty and has both a track-record and affordable contract.