Rolen Trade, Latest: Glaus/Rolen swap (reply #795)

[trwi7]

Yeah Stevo I don't understand Geno's insistence on a #3 hitter. We have that Ryan Braun guy to hit there. I hear he's a pretty good hitter.

[molitor fan]

If Doug acquires Rolen, I'll admit he tried his best to improve this team. But if he doesn't, it's entirely his fault for playing it way too cautiously

 

Wow - just note kiddos that this statement comes from someone that denied the mere existance of the minor league system for years.

[sbrylski]

I'll bet one reason Mozeliak is asking quite a bit is because this will be his first trade as GM. Always a tough one. Selling low on a top player of years past wouldn't make the general fanbase all that happy, I'd imagine, and if Rolen does return to form it could look like a pretty bad transaction. Just kind of a lowish reward, higher risk trade - not one wants to make within the division and as your first trade as a GM.

[danzig6767]

"Brewers GM Doug Melvin, one of baseball's more experienced dealers, told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel it was he who couldn't quite pull the trigger on the trade that would have brought Scott Rolen from St. Louis. "

 

So Doug was the one who admittedly couldn't quite pull the trigger. *crickets*

 

If Rolen goes somewhere else, and we wind up with a miscast 2nd baseman hitting 8 homers and batting 7th for us at 3B, instead of Scott Rolen hitting in the #3 hole, then this IS Doug's fault, right?

 

At first I was wary of Rolen, I'll admit. My spidey sense was tingling, and it wasn't in a good way. Rolen had a few relatively bad seasons lately, but when I see the alternatives Doug had in mind, (Tadahito Iguchi learning 3B, Aaron Boone, Joe Crede...who else? Mark Bellhorn?), I'm back on board the Rolen train.

 

Rolen has his flaws, and he doesn't come cheap, but these days, the only players who are without flaws and aren't expensive can only be found in PlayStation games.

 

If Doug acquires Rolen, I'll admit he tried his best to improve this team. But if he doesn't, it's entirely his fault for playing it way too cautiously.

1. Why would Rolen hit in the three hole? That spot in the lineup is locked in with Braun.

 

2. I want Rolen alot, but until we know for sure who the Cardinals asked for, how can we now that Melvin was being to cautious? What if they wanted Capuano and Hall or Capuano and Parra? I would like Doug to make a bold move, but without knowing real details vs speculation, all we are left with is to guess at the demands from the Cardinals end.

[don1481]

I've had to slog through some 600+ posts through this thread... and to be honest, I'm still kind of ambivalent about this rumor.

 

On one hand, the D gets upgraded... assuming a healthy Rolen. Plus a decent (at this point in his career) hitter... again, assuming a healthy Rolen.

 

But as we've learned with assuming a healthy Sheets, to assume means...http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/wink.gif

 

I would think that this is a good trade if the Brewers don't give up "too much." And by "too much" I mean Capuano plus a top-5 prospect and not getting salary relief. If the Brewers can get Toronto to pay a bit of Koskie's salary, then they should be able to get the same from St. Louis. And given LaRussa's comments tonight, I'd say that his value went down yet again.

[southpaw121505]

I thought the deal was Cappy and Hall for Rolen? How can anyone blame DM for not taking that? I'm glad he didn't.

[GenoSeligPrieb]

"Geno, if you don't mind me asking, why you keep insisting the Brewers need a three-hole hitter?"

 

No problem, Stevo.

 

It's because it seems (and there's probably statistical evidence to support it somewhere) that the Brewers hit a record number of homers last season, but still lost too many 1-run games. Too many solo shots. Not enough baserunners for Ryan and Prince.

 

I'd also REALLY prefer it if that #3 hole hitter was a lefty bat, to balance the order. And I know I'll get b-slapped for this, but I'd like him to have a .300+ batting average, if possible. Doesn't have to have big power. I'll trade power for BA/OBP.

 

"Also Doug "couldn't" pull the trigger because he felt the Cards were asking for too much."

 

Couldn't....wouldn't...in this case, same thing.

 

You make a pretty subjective argument here, I'm afraid. Back in the day, Sal Bando felt every free agent was asking for what he considered "too much." Draft choices, too. And where did that ultra-conservative approach get us?

 

It's like Doug fell asleep in 1999 like Rumpelstiltskin, and woke up this winter to be amazed that 5-time All-Star 3rd basemen and All-Star closers command salaries in the low 8 figures these days.

 

I have a question for YOU now, Stevo.

 

I can see that you are among the group of Brewer fans who almost automatically dismisses anyone making more than the league average. You look for flaws, and convince yourself the player in question is not worth the money.

 

Who is, then?

 

I'm not calling you out or anything. I'm just curious as to what it would take to convince you an outsider player is worth a cpmparatively large contract.

 

"Wow - just note kiddos that this statement comes from someone that denied the mere existance of the minor league system for years."

 

Love the hyperbole! Yep, kiddos, I'm just that backward of a person!

 

I also don't believe that Elvis is alive, that Wendy Selig-Prieb earned her position as Brewers CEO on merit alone, that American Idol is on the up-and-up, that wrestling is real, and that Ned Yost is a tactical genius!!

[MJLiverock]

I think Capuano and Gamel would be fair from a Brewer perspective. Gamel has a decent stick so far but by most accounts has no glove at third so do the Brewers really need another all hit no defense position player? Especially one still a ways from the majors. Rolen can be a difference maker for this team unlike a Crede or others who have been mentioned who will be just a guy to fill a spot.

[danzig6767]

I thought the deal was Cappy and Hall for Rolen? How can anyone blame DM for not taking that? I'm glad he didn't.

That's the problem, nobody except Melvin and the Cardinals seems to know exactly what they wanted in return for Rolen and how much money they would eat. We get to guess based on various reports and those reports change depending on who is commenting, but who knows if any are accurate and if one is accurate, which one is the truth?

[TooLiveBrew]

I'd also REALLY prefer it if that #3 hole hitter was a lefty bat, to balance the order.

 

So the lineup can go lefty-to-lefty with Prince hitting cleanup?

[don1481]

Gamel has a decent stick so far but by most accounts has no glove at third so do the Brewers really need another all hit no defense position player? Especially one still a ways from the majors. Rolen can be a difference maker for this team unlike a Crede or others who have been mentioned who will be just a guy to fill a spot.

 

Gamel can hit, but the longer he remains in the minors to "work on things" the more control the Brewers have over his potentially "prime" years. LaPorta or not, I think that Gamels should be kept as a potential future OF.

 

Again - IF Rolen is healthy, yes, he's a difference maker. Otherwise, we've given up Capuano and whomever else for, well, potentially a step backwards. On the plus side... Capuano wouldn't be in the rotation to continue to be lousy like he has for pretty much 1 1/2 straight seasons. I think the Cardinals just miss Jason Marquis and feel like Capuano can perform the most like him!

[PeaveyFury]

So Doug was the one who admittedly couldn't quite pull the trigger.

 

And rightfully so, IMO, considering that two sources reported that the Cardinals asked for Hall, Capuano, AND a prospect for Rolen.

 

Are you willing to make that trade, Geno?

[fondybrewfan]

Would it really be that big of a deal if one of our Top 5 prospects outside of LaPorta or Salome gets traded. I mean honestly our Top 5 isnt what it used to be. And since we have 6 Top 75 picks this year I would go ahead with the prospect as long as it isnt LaPorta (It cant be anyways) Salome, or Jeffress. Gamel may maybe not, if they throw in Ryan Franklin you got yourself a deal

 

EDIT: On the condition the Cards pick up say $5 million annually on the contract I would be fine with Cappy and Gamel going for Rolen and Franklin

[PeaveyFury]

I'd also REALLY prefer it if that #3 hole hitter was a lefty bat, to balance the order.

 

So you'd bat Prince 5th, then?

 

EDIT: Toolive beat me..... curses for not reading the whole thread first! http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[don1481]

Would it really be that big of a deal if one of our Top 5 prospects outside of LaPorta or Salome gets traded. I mean honestly our Top 5 isnt what it used to be. And since we have 6 Top 75 picks this year I would go ahead with the prospect as long as it isnt LaPorta (It cant be anyways) Salome, or Jeffress. Gamel may maybe not, if they throw in Ryan Franklin you got yourself a deal

 

For the health risk that the Brewers would be assuming with a Rolen acquisition, coupled with the fact that LaRussa continues to fan the flames of that feud... Rolen's value presently is limited. A top 5 prospect plus Capuano is too much IMO. I'm not sold on Ryan Franklin, to be honest. He's 34 and only was a good reliever last year.

[Milltownhooker]

A Scott Rolen interview should be a whole lot of funhttp://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

 

 

[MJLiverock]

I'd trade Cappy and Gamel for Rolen and pick up his entire salary. Some of these other 3rd base options mentioned are going for $6MM plus and are basically half of what Rolen is. Even if Rolen rebounds slowly from shoulder surgery he can still put up a .275/.335/.450 line which is below his norms, while playing well above average defense. Crede is coming off back problems which have to affect his swing and defense at least as much as Rolen's shoulder did and by most accounts Rolen's shoulder problem didn't really hurt his defense. The Brewers don't have any real use for Gamel right now and Cappy hasn't been all that impressive for a year and a half with arby and free agency looming anyway.

 

I am not sure this is enough from a Cardinal perspective however since they appear to have wanted Cappy and Hall. For what it is worth a friend a who is a Cardinal fan (and pretty knowledgeable) said he would be extremely irate if the Cardinals traded Rolen to the Brewers at all given this seems to fill a big hole for a division rival. He said he would want a whole lot more than Cappy and a prospect.

[chinabob99]

Tom Haudricourt

To answer Sid74's question: You bet Rolen has a say in this. He can veto any trade to any team. He may have to accept a deal somewhere he isn't thrilled about just to get out of there, but after La Russa ripped him here, I doubt if Rolen will make it easy on them. He could still try to direct a deal to Milwaukee so that he could torment the Cards for a few years.

As for those who think he's some malcontent, as far as I know, Rolen has had issues with just three folks:

1. Larry Bowa

2. Phillies fans

3. Tony La Russa

Now, think about it, whose side would you fall on in those arguments?

this was in the comments of haudricourts' last rolen post. pretty funny.

[DannoMac21]

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3143441

 

La Russa said Wednesday that Rolen asked for a trade, and the Cardinals are exploring their options. But he insisted that the team won't "accommodate" Rolen.

[don1481]

I am not sure this is enough from a Cardinal perspective however since they appear to have wanted Cappy and Hall. For what it is worth a friend a who is a Cardinal fan (and pretty knowledgeable) said he would be extremely irate if the Cardinals traded Rolen to the Brewers at all given this seems to fill a big hole for a division rival. He said he would want a whole lot more than Cappy and a prospect.

 

IMO St. Louis fans are over-valuing Rolen just like we're overvaluing Ben Sheets. What if Rolen comes back and puts another .730 OPS season? Is that worth $12 million? Rolen's D upgrade at 3rd can't be worth that much, can it...?

[Oldcity]

"Geno, if you don't mind me asking, why you keep insisting the Brewers need a three-hole hitter?"

 

I'd also REALLY prefer it if that #3 hole hitter was a lefty bat, to balance the order. And I know I'll get b-slapped for this, but I'd like him to have a .300+ batting average, if possible. Doesn't have to have big power. I'll trade power for BA/OBP.

Well that's fair; I'd agree that the most pressing need is better OBP. I actually think Rolen would be great for the second spot in the lineup. It would be ideal if he was lefty, but Rolen does well against righties so in my eyes it's not a big deal. I just see no reason to not have Braun and Fielder 3-4, unless maybe you wanted to make the argument of putting them 2-3 to get them a few more PAs over the course of the season.

 

 

I have a question for YOU now, Stevo.

 

I can see that you are among the group of Brewer fans who almost automatically dismisses anyone making more than the league average. You look for flaws, and convince yourself the player in question is not worth the money.

 

Who is, then?

 

I'm not calling you out or anything. I'm just curious as to what it would take to convince you an outsider player is worth a cpmparatively large contract.

Well I liked the idea of getting Rolen, and he's certainly not cheap. I'd be behind a 3/33 mil offer to Fukudome. I want the Brewers to extend Sheets (granted not an outside player, but that's big money). I'm not against spending money, it's just that I would be very careful to pick my spots. In other words not do it on guys like Francisco Cordero or Carlos Lee. I wouldn't pay a closer 11 mil a year, and Carlos Lee's 100+ million contract was just not worth it, especially when they had Hart in the wings.

 

Another non-Brewers example. I don't think Torii Hunter or Jose Guillen are worth nearly what they got, and I think those were both poor signings. On the other hand, if the right player becomes available in free agency I'd be fine with throwing a big deal at a free agent who'd fill a big need (i.e. Fukudome). I like the Riske signing, and he certainly got more than league average for a reliever.

[MJLiverock]

I guess I don't see paying a proven MLB player like Rolen $12MM/year despite coming off an injury to a shoulder more of a risk than paying a player coming from Japan $11MM/year. Japanese players aren't always all they are cracked up to be. For every Ichirio or Hideki Matsui there is a Hideki Irabu, Kaz Matsui. Even Dice-K failed to live up the promise of ESPN pundits looking for a dominate pitcher with a 3.00 ERA. Not saying they aren't good but it is a big adjustment both culturally and talent wise.

[Oldcity]

Well I guess in a way that's the point I was making. Geno kind of claimed that I don't like paying guys or taking risks, but I said I'd take a risk on someone like Fukudome or Rolen. Rolen in particular would be a risk.

[madtowndrunkard]

I didn't realize that Rolen was actually demanding a trade. I read an interview on ESPN.com w/ LaRussa and strong comments he made tells me there is NO way Rolen is playing for the Cards next year. He basically said Rolen he needs to play better or sit on the bench or quit. Then he in the next breath he'd say we need Rolen, I don't want him traded. My guess is LaRussa just doesn't want to see him go to Milwaukee. Not only to spite Ned Yost but the last thing LaRussa wants to see is Rolen getting revenge. I bet you LaRussa will block Rolen from going to Milwaukee and they'll end up trading him to a west coast team for much less then what we were offering.

[trwi7]

I bet you LaRussa will block Rolen from going to Milwaukee and they'll end up trading him to a west coast team for much less then what we were offering.

 

I don't think LaRussa is going to have any say in this. Rolen can make LaRussa's life hell with his no trade clause and if the relationship has gotten so toxic Rolen may decide to not waive his no trade clause to go to a west coast team and demand he be traded to Milwaukee.