Radio Rumor about a 4 Way Trade Potentially Set in Place

[qrk10000]

And most Brewer fans would be wrong. Braun's WARP 3.9, Week's WARP 3.5

 

Shouldn't that be in blue, End?

[endaround]

Nope, Braun and Weeks were rather similar in value due to Braun's horrendous defense compared to Week's merely bad. Braun wasn't vastly superior.

 

And my whole point wasn't that Crawford wasn't a better hitter. It was as trade value, Hall and Crawford are very similar. Crawford is younger and has much more speed. Hall has much more power, plays infield and is under control for an additional year. I'd do a Hall for Crawford trade as farily even. The whole point was Sheets for Crain is just bad.

[Oldcity]

To suggest that Weeks is better than Crawford is laughable.

Guess I'm laughable. I'd never trade Weeks for Crawford.

 

[DuWayne Steurer]

Crawford is twice the player hal l could ever hope to be and everybody that is an objective baseball fan knows this.

 

Yeah, I'm sorry, but that's a load of crap. Saying that you're "objective" doesn't make your opinion right.

[TooLiveBrew]

To suggest that Weeks is better than Crawford is laughable.

 

By the ASB in 2008, I think quite the opposite is going to be true. Remember all those 'JJ Hardy isn't good' discussions that didn't realistically account for his injury recovery/ies? Apply those here. Weeks with a cleaned-up wrist has both power & OBP of which Crawford could only dream.

[Big Reed]

I will agree I have my own biases. I tend to go with published national oppinions and rankings rather than "I went to the game and so I know" biases.

 

For compensation purposes for 2007, hall was ranked 40th among NL position players - a type B player.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/nl/2007-10-31-elias-rankings-complete_N.htm.

 

crawford was ranked as the 20th best ALl player and a Catagory A player.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/2007-10-31-elias-rankings-complete_N.htm

 

these rankings are by Elias and consider more things than just fantasy stats.

 

part of ESPN's outfielder player rankings had crawford ranked 23rd, and hall 53rd . these rankings also use more than just the typical fantasy stats.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playerrating?type=batting&league=mlb&position=of

 

Weeks was rnked 35th among NL infielders. a cat b player..

 

I know how much brewer fans love Bill Hall . but the national rankings which are supposed to be objective all rank Crawford a lot higher than hall. on the bright side, hall was ranked higher than jenkins who came in at 49th. rather than arguing over obscure stats for another 12 pages, i think we can end our debate with the Elias rankings. it's just not worth my time and yours trying to tell you which outfielder is better.

 

I als o believe hall's value was further deflated when Yost decided to platoon him last September in favor of gross and gwynn.

[sbrylski]

these rankings are by Elias and consider more things than just fantasy stats.

 

Aren't they also dated to like 1984 or something?

 

Not saying they are wrong, but their accuracy is someone sketchy.

 

Though, I agree, Crawford>Hall as an OFer.

[endaround]

Elias stats heavily weight BA and playing time. Hall was injured

[logan82]

A middle infielder with a higher OBP and OPS is worth way more than a corner outfielder.

[TooLiveBrew]

If we're deciding who's the best player (or better players) based on the Elias Player Type rankings, we're in trouble.

[Fatter than Joey]

Aren't they also dated to like 1984 or something?

 

1981 --

 

these rankings are by Elias and consider more things than just fantasy stats.

 

They pretty much predate anything besides gumcard stats.

 

i think we can end our debate with the Elias rankings

 

I would like to debate this further --

 

The Elias rankings were designed to determine compensation to a team. They do not care or project future value of a player.

They only try to measure the impact a player has on a team in the last 2 seasons, and then try to get a team

proper compensation -- for example -- Ryan Braun was a type B player in Elias -- simply because he hasn't contributed

to the Brewers that much in the last 2 years -- compared to Bill Hall.

 

Now, when 2 teams trade for players -- you really don't care about a player's past production -- you are concerned

about what they are going to do for your team in the future.

 

You can't use Elias rankings effectively for trade considerations, they just are not designed for that.

[logan82]

How much would the Brewers stolen base philosophy affect Crawfords SB attempts? I believe that the team you play for affects how often you try to steal bases.

[endaround]

Whoever bats 2nd for the Brewers likely will get next to no chance to steal.

[dlk9s]

Weeks was rnked 35th among NL infielders. a cat b player..

I healthy Weeks, as was evidenced by his final two months, is much better than the 35th best NL infielder.

 

[qrk10000]

Nope, Braun and Weeks were rather similar in value due to Braun's horrendous defense compared to Week's merely bad. Braun wasn't vastly superior.

 

And my whole point wasn't that Crawford wasn't a better hitter. It was as trade value, Hall and Crawford are very similar. Crawford is younger and has much more speed. Hall has much more power, plays infield and is under control for an additional year. I'd do a Hall for Crawford trade as farily even. The whole point was Sheets for Crain is just bad.

 

I value defense as much as the next guy and you are correct that their VORP's are close, but a difference in OPS of 200 points and a difference in OPS+ of 45 points is not close. Braun was much more consistent month-to-month as well. More food for thought: Braun played in 5 less games in 2007 yet nearly hit more home runs than Weeks has in the past 3 seasons combined.

 

I like Weeks and I hope for the first time in his career that he can stay healthy and be somewhat consistent for 150+ games. I think this is a great example of one needing to look at more than one stat to judge a player. Now if Weeks can come out and carry a .900+ OPS in 2008 over 150+ games, I will very happily eat my words. That would make him just about the best second baseman in the game. Cheers to hoping that happens.

 

I still think the Brewers would need to give up more to acquire Crawford but that is my opinion.

 

And I completely agree about Sheets for Crain. That is terrible.

[DrWood]

Over the last three seasons, crawford has batted 2nd the most, but has batted 3rd more than he's batted leadoff. He's been a consistently good slugger (over .450), but last season was his highest OBP (.351). He's a fine player, but he's a better highlight reel than player.

[Big Reed]

I'm done with this subject. if you're going to find fault with the system that MLB uses to rank its players, then there is no use in me trying to tell you who is right or wrong. if Elias is good enough for MLB, it's good enough for me.

 

I will agree if Crawford batted second for the Brewers, they would have to rethink their swinging for the fences philosophy, or he would be never come close to getting 50 steals in a brewer uniform which would take away his major asset.

[endaround]

You mean the rankings that have Raul Ibanez as better than Grady Sizemore? Yeah, they're worthwhile.

[MoneyballMan]

You mean the rankings that have Raul Ibanez as better than Grady Sizemore? Yeah, they're worthwhile.

Great example! I agree that if you're going to compare stats, there are many better than Elias rankings. I'm not going to jump into the argument of Hall or Weeks vs Crawford, but I'm sure someone can whip together some PECOTA stats (which do also contemplate future performance) that would end the debate.

[logan82]

I will agree if Crawford batted second for the Brewers, they would have to rethink their swinging for the fences philosophy, or he would be never come close to getting 50 steals in a brewer uniform which would take away his major asset.

It isn't their philosophy, it is just the type of players we have.