Radio Rumor about a 4 Way Trade Potentially Set in Place

[JJHardy7]

I haven't forgotten how often Sheets pitches. If we plan to have Sheets not on the team, we'd have a better back up plan.

 

Yo, CV, Parra, Suppan, and Capuano/Bush/Vargas, etc.

 

Note -- the first 3 did not start the year as starters. I'm not saying they're for sure to start every game, but for the first time since Sheets I don't know if we'll need him as much as we have the past few years (we need a healthy Sheets and I don't know if that's around anymore).

[TURBO]

Since the difference between Hall and Crawford is slight,

are you freaking serious?

 

wow...

[Oldcity]

No he's right. The difference between Crawford and Hall is not great.

[billyhallfan]

No he's right. The difference between Crawford and Hall is not great.

 

geez stevo, you are smoking some pretty good stuff...

 

In all seriousness, he is right, if Hall would have played even average last year, the margin isn't all that big, look at the numbers.

[PeaveyFury]

geez stevo, you are smoking some pretty good stuff...

Who ever said Hall is equal to Crawford is smoking some pretty good stuff.

 

As a reminder, stuff like this is frowned upon here.

[logan82]

Wow, the Brewers get shafted here. I'm not sure if I'd do this for Crawford AND Upton. Has everyone forgotten how terrible the rotation has been without Sheets the past 3 seasons?

 

Yes, I think most people have. People are seeing Gallardo and thinking he will take Sheets' spot in the rotation. They overlook the fact that Gallardo will be in the rotation already and the 2nd best of Bush/Capuano/Vargas/Parra will be replacing Sheets.

 

The only difference I see in Hall and Crawford is stolen bases and with our "slugging" team a caught stealing is way more detrimental than a stolen base is bennificial.

[Weirdos19]

This whole arguement to me is a joke. Talk about overvaluing your own players.

 

Bill Hall

*Career .264/.320/.467/43SB

*240xbh in 2230 PA

*553 K in 2230 PA

*28 yrs old by opening day 2008

 

Carl Crawford

*Career .296/.331/.439/277SB

*281 xbh in 3509 PA

*505 K in 3509 PA

*26 yrs old by opening day 2008

 

 

*Crawford's BA and OBP has improved every year of his career.

BA- .259 in 2002, .281 in 2003, .296 in 2004, .301 in 2005, .305 in 2006, .315 in 2007

OBP- .290, .309, .331, .331, .348, .355

*Crawford's SLG% has been over .450 over the last 4 years

 

If the Brewers end up with Crawford for an expiring contract, I will be very happy. The guy is on the cusp of superstardom.

[logan82]

I don't think people are overvaluing Hall. They just think the difference isn't big enough that it would be worth trading the players that have been mention for Crawford. The only thing he clearly does better than Hall is SB and they are generally believed to be of little overall value especially given the fact that we are not a "small ball team" and with our current players, never will be.

[trwi7]

If the Brewers end up with Crawford for an expiring contract, I will be very happy. The guy is on the cusp of superstardom.

 

Hasn't he been on the cusp of superstardom for 2 or 3 years now?

 

I look at it like this.

 

Crawford>Hall

Sheets>>>Crain

[PeaveyFury]

Yeah, I don't think people are claiming the Brewers are getting completely ripped off in a Sheets for Crawford deal, but when they're supposedly giving up a player nearly as good as Crawford IN ADDITION to Sheets, it's a horrible deal.

[Big Reed]

take away hall's career year from his career statistics, and he's not even close to putting up the numbers Crawford has put up for the last three years. Crawford has also shown steady improvement in all areas of his game the last three years. Crawford also knows how to play outfield which is something Hall has yet to learn.

 

I don't like having to give up both hall and sheets to obtain crawford. but to suggest that Hall is almost as good as Crawford is not looking at both players with objectivity. Who is to say if Hall will ever approach the year he had in 2006? Many players have career years and then disapear. Crawford, on the other hand, has put together three great seasons with signs that he will continue to produce similar numbers for the next 5-10 years.

 

While I'd love to add Crawford, i think Tampa's asking price is currently a little too high. I thought what the Cubs offered tampa for him was also a little much. if the brewers get into a bidding war for Crawford with the Cubs, I fear the Cubs would win because they would be more willing to part with their top minor league prospects than the Brewers would.

[trwi7]

take away hall's career year from his career statistics, and he's not even close to putting up the numbers Crawford has put up for the last three years.

Well then take away Crawford's career year too. You can't just take away a player's best year.

 

Hall can also play the outfield and the infield. That's a really valuable commodity signed for 4 more years.

[Weirdos19]

take away hall's career year from his career statistics, and he's not even close to putting up the numbers Crawford has put up for the last three years.

Well then take away Crawford's career year too. You can't just take away a player's best year.

 

Hall can also play the outfield and the infield. That's a really valuable commodity signed for 4 more years.

You need to look at the numbers carefully. Every year has been Crawford's career year. He has improved every year and he's only 26.

 

 

[Weirdos19]

If the Brewers end up with Crawford for an expiring contract, I will be very happy. The guy is on the cusp of superstardom.

Hasn't he been on the cusp of superstardom for 2 or 3 years now?

 

I look at it like this.

 

Crawford>Hall

Sheets>>>Crain

 

In my original post, I thought the Brewers should get Wheeler too. Sheets and Hall for Crawford, Wheeler, and Crain.

[TheBrewer]

"Crawford>Hall

Sheets>>>Crain "

 

I find that really off.

 

In my opinion::::

Billy Hall at Best-----.280/20HR/80RBI/10SB/.820OPS/130K/.330OBP

 

Crawford Next Season Probables: .315/10-20HR/50SB/.820OPS/90K/.345OBP

 

Hall every season looks like he's swining for the fences. When he hit those 35HRS he was successfull at swinging at the fences. The year before that he wasn't in that mind frame and his BA was 12 Malot higher. This past season he just looked lost. I think we could expect those numbers above for Billy Hall.

 

To compare Billy Hall and Crawford I dont' get that. Yes Billy can play multiple positions great, but right now he's fixed in at CF. Is the abillity to play multiple positions an asset to our club right now NO. Why? Because he's fixed in at CF and isn't going anywhere. His days of a supersub are over as of right now.

 

Hall will swing for the fences, provide occasional speed, strike out alot. Crawford is a speedy guy, will steal bases, will most likely match what Hall does in terms of HR's, but will K less and will carry a higher BA.

 

My comparision:

12 Million Dollar Expering Contract on Sheets vs. 3 Years Carl Crawford

Billy Hall (.254/14HR/130K past season) vs Jesse Crain (yes he was out this past year, but before that he was electric in the BP just what this team needs)

 

Are we selling low on Sheets? Highly doubt it. Sheets has an EXPIRING CONTRACT. And incase you forgot is injury prone. You could say that CC and Sheets are a push. But in my opinion we have the edge on that. Billy Hall vs. Crain, Hall did well for us in the past, but he's too swing happy and I could see him being a Geoff Jenkins, guy who thinks he can hit 40HR's every season, and will reallly literally try too, but will come up short aka 2006 Billy Hall. Crain could be a super asset to our BP next season and a huge upgrade. I could even say he could be a closer in waiting. As long as he makes a full recovery which I expect him too, he's young, cheap I believe, and a stud in the BP. Melvin might be thinking that if he fails to get Cordero etc maybe Crain can be his closer, if not setup at worst.

[trwi7]

You need to look at the numbers carefully. Every year has been Crawford's career year. He has improved every year and he's only 26.

He went from an .800 OPS and 46 steals to an .830 OPS with 58 steals to an .821 OPS and 50 steals. His walk rate went down from 2004 to 2005, went back up a little bit in 2006 and went back down in 2005.

He's valuable. Is he this valuable? No, not in my opinion.

[Weirdos19]

His average went up when his walk rate went down. His OBP was the same. I'd rather have a guy with 200 hits and zero walks than a guy with 120 hits and 80 walks.

 

Plus if you add SB to his total bases (even subtracting CS), his OPS is higher than Hall's.

 

I'm still a Billy Hall fan, he's just nowhere near Crawford.

[Big Reed]

which year should I take away for Crawford? This year? if I did so, Crawford would still have 4 other great years. Taking away Hall's one great year and you don't have much to show but mediocrity.

 

hall's ability to play infield is lost on the Brewers because they already have Weeks, Hardy and Braun. if Hall was a great infielder, he wouldn't have been moved to the outfield,. he'd still be starting at shortstop, third or second. The fact Hall was moved to the outfield instead of Weeks demonstrated that the Brewers have a lot of confidence in their current infielders. The Brewers have no intentions of moving Hall back to the infield if one of their current infielders suffers a prolonged injury. In the event of an injury, that's what utility infielders are for. That's why the brewers have Counsell - to fill in for injuries.

 

The fact Hall can play the infield is a very valuable "trade" commodity rather than any real benefit to the Brewers. Face it, Hall is more valuable as trade bait than he is as a starting center fielder. Other teams, when looking at Hall, see his versatility. but the brewers would never use it. If the brewers were forced to bring Hall back into the infield, they would be in some serious trouble to their current infielders.

 

Even with Hall's career year, he is still nowhere close to being the outfielder Crawford is. Crawford has 5 very consistant great seasons that show a steady increase in batting average, OBP, SLG and OPS. Hall had one great year in 2006. In that year, he saw his KO's go up and his batting average go down. He followed that up with a mediocre year this year. I think this year was probably a lot closer to Hall's norm and his career stats than 2006 was.

 

This board is full of guys that love to look up stats. Surely there are several posters that can point out that Hall's career year in 2006 was several deviations from his norm. those same stats posters can also look at Crawford's stats for the last 5 years and come to an obvious conclusion about his consistancy and the fact that he has improved each year.

 

I still think offering Sheets and Hall for Crawford and Crain is too much. I would want one of tampa's or the Yankee's young pithing prospects rather than Craine. the brewers don't really need another short reliever. if the Brewers were to trade Sheets, they would need a promising young starter. If I Mr Melvin, I'd ask for Edwin Jackson, Nieman or Wade Davis.

 

But in reality, which this 4 way trade is not, why would tampa want Hall? If they trade away Crawford, they still have Upton Young and baldelli starting in the outfield. They have Iwamura and longoria as their future second and third baseman. they have harris and brignac at short. I don't really see a need or a desire for tampa to want Hall.

[TheBrewer]

Nice post Big Reed. One thing I will point out though is that Hall according to this would be going to the Twins since they lost Tori Hunter. Also, yes I would love to get like Kennedy etc from the Yankees, but at the same time, Crain could be a nice pickup for us, he could close for the Brewers... Aside from this past season, the 2-3 seasons before he's been a RP Stud and I'd gladly take him and stick him in either setup or closer role.

[yoshii8]

Has anybody watched a lot of Rays games? I'd like to hear how the Rays fans feel about him. I've only seen him a couple of times in All-Star games and other ESPN games. It seems on highlights that he is a very exciting player to watch. I think that might be kind of cool to see Weeks and Crawford at the top of the order, but it would be very hard for me to see Ben Sheets and Billy Hall given up for him. That would make our pitching staff look a lot worse, and I think Hall is being undervalued by a lot of people, he is a very exciting player himself.

[Big Reed]

Ok, I can see where the Twins could use Hall.

 

I's hate to give Sheets away, but his highest win total even when healthy was 12 games. I also hate to say it, but his days of pitching 250+ innings are also probably behind him. if healthy, what is the best we could expect from Sheets? 220 innings 16-20 wins , 200-220 Kos, 3-4 shut outs and 3-5 complete games? 2.8 ERA and how many years could we expect Sheets to put up those type of numbers? A look at pitchers Vito, Hudson and Carpenter would suggest a maximum of 3-4 years producing those numbers. A more reasonable expectation would be to project Sheets to put up Andy Pettitte type numbers.

 

I want to acquire Crawford. Real bad. He is this decade's Bernie Williams! I just would hate to give up Sheets to make it happen. the brewers would lose more giving up Sheets than they would gain in acquiring Crawford. if Weeks got his batting average up to the 290-300 area where it belongs, we wouldn't need Crawford. When the brewers drafted Weeks, I compared him to Robbie Alomar. He hasn't come close.

[logan82]

Weeks had a higher OBP last year and has a higher career OBP than Crawford. Much more important than batting average. I think it is incredible that Weeks had an OBP of .374, 139 points higher than his BA.

[endaround]

This board is full of guys that love to look up stats. Surely there are several posters that can point out that Hall's career year in 2006 was several deviations from his norm. those same stats posters can also look at Crawford's stats for the last 5 years and come to an obvious conclusion about his consistancy and the fact that he has improved each year.

Except for when he didn't improve like last year. And the fact that he will likely regress again as his .375 BABIP just isn't going to last. Hall's 2006 was huge, but his 2005 was as good as anything Crawford has ever done. Hall's Zips projection is .270.336/.475. Crawford's Zips isn't out yet but Bill James has him at .299/.339/.452.

[TheBrewer]

"Hall's 2006 was huge, but his 2005 was as good as anything Crawford has ever done. "

 

 

Hall had 35HR's ONE year with what a .270BA? 140K? I don't know off hand specifically.....

 

That statement of yours is so far off seriously.

 

Crawford EVERY season puts up .300-.315BA/10-20HR/40-60SB. Period. Yes his BA has improved over the seasons but someone else pointed out that another aspect of his game fell out when thats happened. But whoop.. big deal. Hall does NO WAY equal or come close to Carl Crawford. Thats just ... seriously

 

For those of you that think Hall compares equally to Crawford comon get real guys. He hit .254 this year with barely 14HR and thats about it. Get real guys

[flosses like fossas]

i have to agree with big reed on the point that sheets' durability and potential stats (that is, his value) are declining and i see it as a distinct possibility that someone (or many someones, on both coasts) offers him more than the crew want to pay after next year. i also see it as a potential problem that if sheets doesn't have a full season in 2008, the brewers might still overpay to keep him. we've already got a lot of young arms. i like crawford, too, and i think making him a target should be on the brewers' list. i think crawford, right now, all things considered, is the better player (than sheets) for the brewers. that said, if it took a package with hall and the brewers got back some bullpen help - it hurts me to say it because i loves me some billy hall - i'm all for that, too. moving hall and sheets would hopefully allow the brewers to throw a big-time contract crawford's way.