The Major Drug Thread

[jaybird2001wi]

I am not all about accusations and what not, but since the Mitchell Steroid deal is due to be released by the end of the calendar year and I spent some time reading about lengthy drug suspensions in MLB based on convictions off the field. The 60's and 70's were the era of greenies and then the 70's-80's was all about cocaine and greenies. Aside from Paul Molitor, no former or current Brewer has ever been implicated or had any sense of conviction of using cocaine.

Steroids are the craze now, but back in the 80's and 90's was when things got a bit murky. The question is, why did Major Leaguers decide to collectively or infamously decide to "follow the leaders" in drugs in every era?

[aracko]

Money and career path. In all honesty, Id gladly, without a 2nd thought, take steroids if it meant I could play a game, and get paid in the upper 90% of the population instead of sit in a cubicle for 8 - 12 hours a day. Even if the money wasnt that great, I would still do it.

 

1 shot a day to get to do exactly what you want every day of your life? Thats a small price to pay. Besides that, Steroids, if cycled properly, are not nearly as dangerous as the world has made them out to sound.

 

If everyone is cheating, is it really cheating?

[endaround]

Players have been using Steroids at least since the 70s, and likely earlier. I mean everyone just assumes Maris' hair fell out due to stress. Greenies have been around for nearly forever, with stories of certain pitchers ripping infielders who didn't make plays when they didn't take their pills.

[Patrick425]

1 shot a day to get to do exactly what you want every day of your life? Thats a small price to pay. Besides that, Steroids, if cycled properly, are not nearly as dangerous as the world has made them out to sound.

 

If everyone is cheating, is it really cheating?

Uhhggh. Yes, it is cheating. Not trying to compare steroids to the Holocaust, but it's the same group mentality. If everyone is doing it, then it's not a crime right? Wrong. Any thought about the integrity of the game? Is this what we want? Why don't we just put HR hitting robots out there...that sounds like fun. *sigh*

[aracko]

Patrick, cheating has always happened in Baseball. It is part of the drama of the game. From Scuffing the ball, to vaseline on the cap, to stealing signs, to intimidating the umpire, to small strikezones for players the umpire had it out with, to sudifed, to steroids.......

 

The integrety of the game isnt effected one bit. We have been watching Steroid athletes for probably over 20 years, yet we didnt care until the media made it a big deal. We dont question Vince Coleman yet outside of Ben Johnson, nobody ran that fast. Big Mac saw it coming so he left. I could speculate about alot of guys possibly having been on the juice.

 

I heard something abuot Hank Aaron having cheated. I dont know if it was speed or what it was - I didnt pay much attention because it didnt matter to me.

[Patrick425]

Aracko, I'm aware that baseball has a history of cheating. Whether or not it's "celebrated", I guess is a matter of opinion. There is cheating in all forms of life. Does that make it right? We are not talking about the occasional pitcher who uses a nail file or Vaseline. We are talking about a potentially large population of players who are not only doing something that is against the current rules of baseball, but it illegal outside of baseball as well.

 

Throughout the history of education and schools there is a history of students cheating on tests. Does that mean we should celebrate it as part of the folklore of our educational system? When I send my kid off to school should I tell him "Hey if you can find any way to cheat today, do it, because everyone does."? Or, when he asks about steroids, should I just say, "Hey, it's not a big deal, cheating is part of sports, don't you know that you should always look for a way to cheat when you are playing sports? Following the rules is for you know whats"

 

The sad thing is, I think there are parents that convey that message to their kids. Park in the handicap spot, go in the express lane with 20 items, skip people in line, cut off people on the freeway...after all it's all about you, the rest of society doesn't matter.

[dadofandrew]

It is funny the holier than thou sportswriters have swept the amphetamines issue right under the table. Hank Aaron took them, as did the majority of players, right up to 2005 or whenever they were banned. They've now switched to Red Bull and coffee.

 

I also find it unique that Gaylord Perry is revered and elected to the Hall by the same guys that refuse to vote for Mark McGwire...Perry has admitted to cheating, Mac has not (though his behavior certainly implicates him).

 

At least try and be consistent with your hypocritical standards.

[mothershipconnection]

I don't know that seeing steroids as worse than something comparable to OTC ephedrine pills is that hypocritical.

[Tbadder]

Why can't we all live with this issue? Humans as a species are entirely illogical--always have been, always will be. The whole brou-ha-ha over the issue points out two human compunctions: 1) the need to establish rules so we can feel life is fair and the need to control human behavior, and 2) our pathological need to circumvent our own rules for our individual happiness.

 

Every set of rules priviledges one kind of person over another kind of person. Rules are never made for everyone; they are made to priviledge certain behaviors, which some people have and others do not have. Obedience has always been our measure of goodness--so be it. But the double instinct I mentioned above proves we cannot have one (rules) without the other (cheating)--it's literally impossible. If it weren't we be simply driven by biological imperatives. I guess it's the curse of free will.

 

Now, what I'm going to say is going to be laughed at by most, and thought just plain wrong by everyone else--but I really believe that if cheating didn't exist, sports wouldn't exist. It's simply apart of every sport in all times; it is part and parcel of what makes up sport--its metaphorical make up if you will. I happen to think cheating is generally a good thing because of what it teaches us about us, and those who get caught provide a modicum of humor and entertainment--therefore cheating is medicinal at times, and it's never bothered me too much, although I certainly understand why others are adamant about stamping it out, and I respect that compunction as well.

 

Hence we get guys like Gaylord Perry, who we love and hate--or just love and chuckle. I mean how is Palmeiro getting caught not just hilarious? I can't wait for Clemens--he's the greatest pitcher of all times you know.

[Fatter than Joey]

I also find it unique that Gaylord Perry is revered and elected to the Hall by the same guys that refuse to vote for Mark McGwire...Perry has admitted to cheating, Mac has not (though his behavior certainly implicates him).

 

I never have really understood this comparison.

 

1.) The Cheating -- Assuming both Perry and Mac cheated -- Umpires were empowered and able to police Gaylord Perry -- Of course there is

nothing an umpire can do about pills/juice. Umpires only ejected Perry one time in his 20+ year career (right at the end), for doctoring a ball --

and that was not from a lack of trying -- Perry was routinely examined by umpires and always found clean. Perry won 314 games and struck

out 3500+ batters -- he didn't need the spitter to accomplish that. The problem was that Perry's forkball behaved like a spitter, and Perry

was smart enough to use it to get into batter's heads. I remember reading back in the 70s -- umps were calling all of his forkballs balls, until he

gave a BP demonstration that showed the umpires that he could make his forkball behave like a spitter. Certainly there is some

absolutist moral high ground that could be taken, (and I do not want to imply that Perry never threw a spitter) -- that would probably disqualify everyone but Cal Ripken from the HOF, but Perry's cheating was definitely different than Mac's and probably had less of an overall impact.

 

2.) The HOF voting -- 1st -- Perry was not inducted on his first ballot -- I don't think he was elected until 10 years or so after he retired

so it was not as if the HOF door swung fast for him -- So why did Mac not get elected?

 

I think I can break down the voting into the following factions.

 

a.) writers that voted for Mac -- 23.5%

 

b.) writers that think Mac was not HOF caliber regardless of steroids. -- ~10% -- There are always some jerks that won't vote for players like Tom Seaver or Hank Aaron, -- and I think that a case could be made that Mac was not a HOF player. He had some very bad years, and regardless of his steroid use -- what

he did (hit HRs) was devalued by the fact there were a lot of players hitting a lot of HRs when Mac peaked.

 

c.) writers that wanted to not "burden" the 2007 HOF ceremony with steroid talk -- ~15% -- I know that there were some writers

that felt that Tony Gwynn and Cal Ripken should not have to field 80 million questions about Mac's drug use.

 

d.) writers that feel like Mac took steroids and will not let him into the HOF no matter what-- ~15%

 

e.) writers that want more time to see how the whole steroid saga unfolds -- ~35% -- I think that this is a reasonable position --

I think a lot of writers feel that they don't know the whole story, and perhaps after a few more years, they will be able

to cast their vote with a deeper perspective. There is no reason why Mac needs to be voted in on the first ballot, and if they

hastily vote him in, they cannot undo it.

 

So really I don't think the writers are being hypocritical -- at least at this point -- I just think a lot of them want to

learn more as these investigations and trials unfold. I think as writers learn that more and more players took them

you will see Mac's vote tally rise.

[TooLiveBrew]

http://www.wutspace.com/upinsmoke/tommychong.jpg

This thread is far-out, maannnn...

[RockCoCougars]

Actually, several Brewers were implicated in the mid-80's Peters drug case with Molitor. I believe some of the others named were Mike Caldwell, Lary Sorenson, and Dick Davis. I'm pretty sure Sorenson served a suspension for it at some point after he was traded from the team.

[brettac1]

Didn't Dave Parker do his share of blow, too? That's another former Brewer on that '80's list.

[Fatter than Joey]

Ted Simmons was

[bacon06]

There should be a pool created picking a few players that will be named in the Mitchell Report like the Free Agent pool. One point for the player and two for the drug they used.