Our Catching Situation...

[ryanbraun75]

Ive heard rumors of us looking at Yorvit Torrealba, Jorge Posada is a yankee, Mike Piazza is aging, and there isn't much available. IMO we do need a good catcher better than Johnny Estrada.

 

Who are u guys looking at and what kind of player do we give up...

[TooLiveBrew]

75, be sure to check the JSOnline article on Estrada's offseason surgery. Yes, he was really bad behind the dish in 2007, but there are likely some good explanations for it. If he's not significantly better in 2008, I'd be surprised.

[brettac1]

He pretty much hit like his career norms. Fewer walks, but he's been taking fewer every year for the past few. Otherwise, his AVG was 2 points lower and his SLG was 3 points lower than his career numbers. He's a catcher and another year older.

 

If he IS significantly better is what would cause me to be surprised.

[TooLiveBrew]

Not when you factor defense into the equation, it shouldn't.

[brettac1]

Well, he's never been considered a good defender, and I would expect that to continue.

 

I think the arm is an "Estrada injury excuse for no production".

[TooLiveBrew]

Perhaps, but even him getting back to his own average defensive production is a significant upgrade over the crap that was 2007.

[MNBrew]

Estrada has performed for full seasons at levels Torrealba has never touched. Last year Estrada's basic numbers other than CS% still trumped Torrealba's, and Estrada was injured, which may well explain his below-his-norms performance. A return to top form isn't a given for Estrada, but I'd still even take a partial improvement.

 

Torrealba isn't a better overall player than Estrada.

Posada re-signed with the Yankees last night.

 

For all our catching position shortfalls, I'd still say Estrada's at least in the top half of major-league catchers. And I'd put production at starting C at least 4th behind bullpen/pitching, situational hitting/OBP, and defense (not in any particular order) amongst offseason improvement priorities.

 

While not a headline grabber, I would certainly agree that our backup C situation needs attention, especially if Miller retires or signs elsewhere. He's a great guy and a good receiver but his bat is about dead (the mega-day he had in Pittsburgh notwithstanding).

[TooLiveBrew]

One thing I'm starting to wonder is (if he indeed wants to play another year) if re-signing Miller is a good idea anymore. He wasn't very impressive in '07 either.

[joshjs]

I agree with Brett. I was the opposite of psyched when we got Estrada. His production was bad, even for a catcher. He's definitely overrated, and I wouldn't mind replacing him.

 

Here are some other names I've heard bandied about (some free agents, some trade targets): Laird, Barrett, Lo Duca, LaRue, Kendall.

[joshjs]

Just a little more info, to back up my previous statement - here's how Estrada ranked among MLB catchers w/ 350+ plate appearances (28 players):

 

OPS: 20th

On-base Percentage: 23rd

Slugging Percentage: 15th

Batting Average: 8th

RBI: 13th

Runs Scored: 21st

 

So while his batting average is great, his important stats are sub-par.

 

I'm not so good at evaluating defense, so I'll refrain. People around here seem to think he's a poor defender, though, and they'd probably point to the fact that he threw out only 11 of the 84 guys who tried to steal on him as some evidence of that.

[MNBrew]

Here's how Estrada ranked among MLB catchers w/ 350+ plate appearances (28 players):

 

OPS: 20th

On-base Percentage: 23rd

Slugging Percentage: 15th

Batting Average: 8th

RBI: 13th

Runs Scored: 21st

Estrada's OPS ranked so low because his OBP did, which compared to his BA ranking is almost entirely in his case going to be the byproduct of his low walk rate. Other than that, he's still a top-half catcher amongst major league regulars -- not glorious, but still top-half.

Runs scored are at least as much an indicator of the poor situational hitting behind Estrada as they are any bit of a reflection of Estrada's less-than-desirable rate of getting on base to have a chance to score.

 

Estrada's not necessarily showing All-Star promise for '08. But he's not all bad and he's better than half the players out there at his position. While a return to normal-ish health isn't an automatic indicator of better production, I'm at least willing to take something of a wait-and-see approach rather than writing him off from the get-go.

 

I'd also bet that his '07 won't give him the greatest leverage for negotiating his '08 pay. And if he underproduces badly enough again, the Brewers aren't committed to him past '08. . . . not necessarily a pure win-win, but hardly a guaranteed losing deal for the Crew.

[Tbadder]

I think the Brew is essentially stuck with Estrada. They've got to get the minor league catcher development program in gear--sooner rather than later. I tend to think he'll be a little better next year, but not significantly. I'd target Laird--the rest you can keep for various reasons--money, defensive ineffectiveness, etc. I'm in the anti-Torvit group--he's the same player just not so good as our Johnny boy.

[recte44]

Laird would be the one player I'd want as an upgrade at catcher. I think we might have something in LeCroy down the line, too. Not real high on Salome.

[DHonks]

Well, he's never been considered a good defender, and I would expect that to continue.

 

brettac, don't forget he was known as a defensive specialist when he came up with the Phillies, and the Braves were ridiculed for dealing so much for an all-defense, no offense catcher

[joshjs]

Estrada's low walk rate is a problem. His slugging percentage was average for a catcher (slightly below average, technically), but his isolated on-base percentage was almost nonexistent. (Not only that, but he (admittedly, even) had a tendency to swing at nearly anything, which hurt as well (albeit less measurably), by keeping opposing pitchers' pitch counts down.)

 

He's not an above-average starting catcher. Or at least he wasn't in 2007. The top-half major league catchers (by OPS, at least) last season were these guys:

 

Jorge Posada

Victor Martinez

Russell Martin

Joe Mauer

Jason Varitek

Chris Snyder

Brian McCann

Josh Bard

Kenji Johjima

Gregg Zaun

John Buck

Carlos Ruiz

Bengie Molina

Ramon Hernandez

Ivan Rodriguez

 

I suppose he's top-half if you include backup catchers, though.

 

(BTW, If you want to believe he's better than his 2007 season showed, I applaud your optimism, and apologize for my relentless cynicism.)

[joshjs]

Laird would be the one player I'd want as an upgrade at catcher.

 

I thought that, too, but looking at the numbers, I just saw that in 2007, Laird had a crap season. Worse than Estrada's, and in a hitter's park. He did have a much better walk rate, though. He had a good year in '06, but never otherwise.

[joshjs]

Just looked it up, and noted that Estrada ranked 20th in VORP, as well -- 3 runs better than Torrealba, and only 1.5 worse than Lo Duca (who's the only name I've heard mentioned that ranked higher than Johnny).

[TooLiveBrew]

Ivan Rodriguez

 

Honest question - are you sure about this one?

[joshjs]

Honest question - are you sure about this one?

 

I ranked 'em by OPS and took the top 15. If you want to rank 'em differently, have at it. http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[TooLiveBrew]

Ok. You didn't list your criteria (& guess I was lazy!), so I wondered. Thanks dude.

[joshjs]

(Fixed the original post to be more specific.)

[1992casey]

Who are u guys looking

Please refrain from AOL/text message-speak on the board. In other words, 'you' needs to be spelled out; "u" isn't acceptable. From the "language not allowed" section of the Rules of Conduct:

Try to refrain from using AOL-type speak. It smacks of pre-teen. Your posts are more likely to be taken seriously if you spell 'you' with more than a 'u.' Also, our membership includes a wide range of age groups, and frankly, not everyone will know what you're saying if your posts read like a text message.

[JohnBriggs12]

Let's not leave Mike Rivera out of the discussion at least in a backup role. He doesn't have a real strong arm, but if you watch him he's a really good receiver. He's quite athletic behind the plate blocking pitches and I think if you asked Brewer pitchers, they'd say they like throwing to him. Yes he hit for a poor average at Nashville (after 2 good seasons in 05 and 06) but still showed the ability to pop the long ball and drive in runs as he did a couple times late for the Brewers.

[TooLiveBrew]

I'd have to guess that at this point, Rivera > Miller. And cheaper.

 

BTW, If you want to believe he's better than his 2007 season showed, I applaud your optimism, and apologize for my relentless cynicism.

Cynicism is what makes the world go 'round. I don't necessarily think we're going to be happy with what we get out of C in 2008, but my hunch is that it'll be better than 2007. If I take the 'wait & see' approach with Weeks & Hardy, it's only fair I do the same with Johnny.

[markedman5]

Torrealba has agreed to terms with the Mets on a 3 year deal per his agent.