Sheets for Crawford rumor

[TooLiveBrew]

I do have a problem with the way you tear apart the stats of players on opposing teams as your reasoning for not liking him, and you don't do the same type of analysis on your own brewers' players. That is what I object to. You should use the same thinking / analysis about both brewers and other team's players. You find fault so easy with other team's players, but if a brewer player is having a bad year, it's wait until next year philosophy or excuses.

You know, this is really unfair, Big Reed. I go out of my way to be objective, especially when considering our own players - it's so easy to drink the kool-aid. If you don't like something I have to say, fine. But stop carelessly slinging insults about my lack of objectivity. If I can't voice my opinion without it being discredited as whining, I guess I'm done dealing with this thread. I should use some thinking / analyisis? Give me a break.

[RobertR]

Frankly, I'd rather cutout the middle man and target Cano instead of Crawford. Put Cano, who's very good defensively in addition to his bat, at 2B, move Weeks to 3B and Braun to LF, instant offensive and defensive upgrade.

 

Robert

[BucEbadger]

Well I hope this is DM just listening to offers about Sheets and looking to move Cappy as its harder to find a true ace like Sheets for what he makes.... Sheets is younger version of Schilling IMO as he gives u 100% of what he has every start and hes a great clubhouse guy to have... Kinda thinking that NY may be looking at Cappy and Hall as a package as they have a hole at third with AROD leaving and a NEED for a lefty with Pettitte gone... They have the arms that the Rays are looking for....

 

Rays - Hughes, Jeffress and NY Prospect

NY - Capuano and Hall

Mil - Crawford and RP (Reyes/Wheeler?)

 

Thinking MN might be a better team to work into that 3rd team as they have young pitching to move and they are looking for a CF and 3rd baseman..

 

Rays - Perkins, Bonser and Jeffress

MN - Hall, (Gywnn/Gamel) and E Jackson

Mil - Crawford (Crain/Nathan/RP?)

[SmartBall]

I couldn't disagree more about Cano. Very good defensively, I would say average defensively at best, (having trouble finding exact zone range numbers, but I have found a few sources that say he is average with a fielding percentage about average) and his OBP is almost entirely BA driven, meaning if you take him out of the juggernaut that is the Yankees lineup he projects to lose some major value. I don't think he is a bad player, but at this point I would take Weeks and hope he continues to develop as he shows more power, more speed, and the ability to take a walk

[RobertR]

I couldn't disagree more about Cano. Very good defensively, I would say average defensively at best, (having trouble finding exact zone range numbers, but I have found a few sources that say he is average with a fielding percentage about average) and his OBP is almost entirely BA driven, meaning if you take him out of the juggernaut that is the Yankees lineup he projects to lose some major value. I don't think he is a bad player, but at this point I would take Weeks and hope he continues to develop as he shows more power, more speed, and the ability to take a walk

Baseball Prospectus has Cano at 26 Fielding Runs Above Average. I'll have to look elsewhere because I think FRAA is flawed, but it's at least an indicator. Probabalistic Model of Range rankings for 2007, put Cano at 8th in the majors. 3rd in MLB in Range Factor, and 4th in Zone Rating according to ESPN. Backup that he's not well above average. There's a lot of evidence that you could improve the Brewers infield defense a lot with Cano.

 

Also, any criticism of Cano as his OBP being derived from his BA also applies to Crawford. Not to mention, the Brewers have a very good lineup as well. Stick him at #2 and he'll be just as "protected" as he was in NY.

 

Robert

[colbyjack]

A couple of three-way ideas involving Sheets and Crawford...

 

The Cleveland Indians might be interested in Sheets (a rotation of Sabathia, Sheets, Carmona, Westbrook and Byrd could rival the Red Sox), and they could have some young players/prospect the Rays would value, especially if they haven't completely given up on Josh Barfield. A package of Adam Miller and/or Jeremy Sowers and/or Jensen Lewis (probably two of the three pitchers mentioned) along with Asdrubal Cabrera (moving back to SS) might be a start. The Indians also have a young catcher by the name of Max Ramirez that could be in the mix of such a deal.

 

I mentioned the Braves above, given their history of trading for proven pitchers like Sheets (Tim Hudson). They too have some depth at both shortstop (Yunel Escobar, Brent Lillibridge and Diory Hernandez), young pitching (JoJo Reyes, Jair Jurrjens), relievers (Joey Devine) and at catcher (Clint Sammons, Brayan Pena), and all of those players, with the exception of Hernandez, are ready to show what they've got in the big leagues.

 

And then there is the Dodgers, who could offer players such as Chin-Lung Hu, Jonathan Meloan and James McDonald. The Dodgers were rumored to be interested in Johan Santana should he become available, which may make Sheets interesting to them as well. I'm not sure if the Rays would want to dabble with Dodgers prospects again, since players like Edwin Jackson, Joel Guzman, Dioner Navarro and Chuck Tiffany haven't exactly panned out as well as I think many thought they would.

 

Robert's suggestion of targeting Cano moving some players around in the process is an interesting idea as well.

[SmartBall]

Defensively, Cano has been graded as about average by Zone Rating so far in his career. The Fielding Bible hated him in 2005, and I'm not sure how they rated him in 2006. UZR felt he was about average in 2006, but rated him as a +10 in 2006. Since I'm using Zone Rating, I project him to be about average again in 2007.

-http://yankeefan.blogspot.com/2007/02/looking-ahead-to-2007-robinson-cano.html

 

Like I said I couldn't find a comprehensive list of Defensive rankings but I found a few statements like this and several that make this one look generous, and this is from a Yankees fan blogger. I never said that Crawford wasn't a high BA guy, just like I am on the fence about aquiring him, I just think he is highly overrated. I stick with my thoughts on Cano, if Weeks was left-handed and hadn't lost so much developmental time to injuries I think they might be similarily rated players. Weeks defense has improved a ton since he came up, but Cano was brutal too before he came up.

I've seen Cano play a lot, and I'm not even sure he'd be a productive Triple-A player. Let's start with his defense; it's brutal. He has terrible footwork and simply lacks any kind of instincts around the bag. There's no way you want him playing up the middle. He might have the raw speed to not be awful in left field, but that's about as kind as I can be regarding his glovework.

-http://minorleagueball.com/comments/2005/2/20/93945/3590/19#19

That was from right before Cano came up. Anyways, Weeks has more speed, more power, and his OBP isn't nearly as tied to BA as Cano's is. In my mind, the only thing that Cano has on Weeks is he is left-handed.

[colbyjack]

Anyways, Weeks has more speed, more power, and his OBP isn't nearly as tied to BA as Cano's is. In my mind, the only thing that Cano has on Weeks is he is left-handed.

 

But the idea wasn't so much to replace Weeks as it was to shift some of the players we have to positions where they wouldn't be as great of a defensively liability. Cano to 2B, Weeks to 3B and Braun to LF is the idea here which eliminates the need to find an OF.

[RobertR]

That was from right before Cano came up. Anyways, Weeks has more speed, more power, and his OBP isn't nearly as tied to BA as Cano's is. In my mind, the only thing that Cano has on Weeks is he is left-handed.

That's all true, but I'm not recommending that the Brewers ship off Weeks. I'm only saying, based on trade rumors, that I'd rather the Brewers go after Cano than Crawford as he's about as valuable offensively, as young, as cheap, and directly addresses one of the Brewers biggest weaknesses, infield defense. And, right now, Cano is much better than Weeks defensively.

 

Robert

[PilprinBuddha]

How about trading Weeks and Cappy for Crawford? It might not be enough, but I am willing to deal Weeks. I might be willing to deal another youngster as well. I like Weeks potential, but Prince, Braun, and Hardy are my long term building blocks.

[And That]

The Brewers aren't going to move Braun off of third base (sigh), maybe short of signing A-Rod. If they get Cano (who I am not sold on), either he or Weeks would be making the move to the OF.

[dadofandrew]

The Cano thought does not make sense, as Weeks has improved at 2B and hopefully will continue to. He might well be worse at 3B than Braun.

 

I have heard a single indication the team is moving anyone, so I feel it's a moot point.

[SmartBall]

I really don't love Crawford as much as many people on this board seem to. I understand why people like him, he is a great player and an exciting player, but I think we have to distinguish between a fantasy player and the guy who is going to be playing left field for the Brewers next year. I realize that I am turning into a Weeks apologist, but I see his ceiling as higher than Hardy's and a completely different player than Fielder and Braun. Without losing so much development time, I think Weeks will be a better player than Crawford at a more premium defensive postion. Oh and I think that Week's defense is getting better and he will be at least an average 2b from here forward.

[RobertR]

The Cano thought does not make sense, as Weeks has improved at 2B and hopefully will continue to. He might well be worse at 3B than Braun.

Statistically, Weeks hasn't improved.

 

Here's how Cano and Weeks rank, based on the earlier links.

 

Cano PMR 8th in MLB, ZR 4 in MLB, RF 3rd in MLB

Weeks PMR 37th in MLB, ZR 24th in MLB, RF 19th in MLB

 

And, taken with a grain of salt

FRAA Cano 26, Weeks -13, Braun -25

 

I certainly wouldn't mind picking up 39 runs worth of defense. If Weeks can play an average 3B, and I believe he can, then the Brewers could possibly pick up 64 runs worth in defense, at least if you believe FRAA has any accuracy. Crawford is a good player, but he won't have that kind of potential impact.

 

Robert

[Fatter than Joey]

Statistically, Weeks hasn't improved.

 

I suspect Weeks has improved when compared to earlier versions of himself -- he still is a poor 2b though.

 

Moving Braun and Weeks makes way to much sense for it to actually happen.

[brettac1]

The whole "Weeks is a solid defender now" campaign was started solely because he made a few less errors. He's still pretty brutal.

[TooLiveBrew]

I realize that I am turning into a Weeks apologist, but I see his ceiling as higher than Hardy's and a completely different player than Fielder and Braun. Without losing so much development time, I think Weeks will be a better player than Crawford at a more premium defensive postion.

You're not a Weeks apologist. You can just see beyond the wrist injury that appears to have clearly limited his power stroke. I don't think Weeks will ever be better at 2B than Crawford in LF, but I think his ceiling offensively is way beyond Carl.

 

The beautiful thing is if there ever were a season in which Rickie hit only, say, .235, his stellar eye & patience still allow him to post an OBP around .375, and an OPS over .800. Seriously, .807 OPS in a year in which Rickie didn't hit the ball well at all (BA wise). Crawford's best year so far .830 - not likely to happen, but imagine a year in which Crawford batted .235. Yikes!

[dadofandrew]

Weeks has the skills to be a Gold Glover (let's pretend that award is actually for the best defense), but it appears his lack of natural instincts will prevent him from ever being above average. However, even if he can get up to that level, his offense would make him a top 2-3 2B. Crawford might hit that level as well in LF.

[homer]

"Weeks has the skills to be a Gold Glover (let's pretend that award is actually for the best defense), but it appears his lack of natural instincts will prevent him from ever being above average."

 

Wouldn't instinct be considered a skill? It's an unlearned skill but still...

[Fatter than Joey]

let's pretend that award is actually for the best defense

 

I think it would be easier to pretend that Weeks is a good 2b.

[RobertR]

Cano also has the tools to be a Gold Glover. And he's living up to those tools.

 

I'm trying to think of an example of a guy that was capable of playing 2B adequately and had an arm that couldn't also play 3B. Can't think of a person. 3B is rated as easier on the defensive spectrum from 2B for a reason.

 

Robert

[JohnBriggs12]

Did I miss something? Where does it say anything about Cano? The thread says the Yanks would deal Damon but that he's not what the Brewers want. Cano isn't likely on the block. Saying your are targeting him doesn't change that fact. Crawford is being discussed because the D-Rays are listening to offers for him.

[RobertR]

The rumors are that the Rays don't want Sheets and Capuano, who the Brewers are dangling, due to salary concerns and the Yankees have been dragged into the talks with Cano and Cabrera mentioned. Something like Yankees get Sheets, Brewers get Crawford, and Rays get Cano and/or Cabrera being the rumor.

If that's what's being considered, I'm contending that the Brewers are targetting the wrong guy.

Robert

[JohnBriggs12]

What's your source Robert? The link on the first post doesn't mention Cano at all. All I've seen on Cano is that the Twins would want him for Santana for obvious reasons. It would make no sense even for Tampa Bay to trade Crawford to get back Cano either. Brendan Harris had a pretty solid year at 2B for the Rays who need pitching pitching pitching.

[Milltownhooker]

I'd rather deal with the Yankees direct trade Sheets for Melky & Ian Kennedy. That frees up Hall as additional trade bait along with the other SP.