Sheets for Crawford rumor

[ILuvDaBush]

The player who I would target if I were to give up Sheets would be Jason Bay. That is the type of talent that is commisserate with the value of Ben Sheets. His K/BB and K/9IP coupled with his propensity to eat innings should give every Brewer fan warm, happy feelings.

[Invader3K]

I wouldn't mind this trade idea one bit. That's all I can say for now until we hear something more concrete.

[Robideaux]

I really like Crawford. He doesn't walk enough for my liking, but he does a lot of other things that make him a very good player nonetheless. He's also still pretty young, so he's got a chance to get better. That said, I think trading Sheets is basically giving up on 2008. I know he gets hurt a lot, but there is not another pitcher out there who we could add that would even be remotely in the same class as Sheets is. We might be better with Crawford in 2009 if we lose Sheets for draft picks, but it would be very very hard to make the playoffs next season without Sheets. We lost the division this year because we didn't have good enough pitching. Subtracting Sheets isn't going to improve it. You could argue that adding Crawford would help the offense, but how many extra runs will Crawford provide over a cheaper alternative (even Menchkins for that matter)? I'd guess that it's not enough to offset how many more runs the replacement for Sheets would allow.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I think Robideaux makes a great point. The offense is already very good, and Crawford would make it marginally better, but getting rid of Sheets makes the entire rotation worse, as each guy is forced to bump up a spot. I realize once the season gets rolling, 2's don't face 2's, 3's don't face 3's, and so on, but getting rid of your best pitcher better (even if he starts only 24 games) needs to bring more than a corner outfielder who probably won't do much better than an .850 OPS.

[mothershipconnection]

but getting rid of your best pitcher better (even if he starts only 24 games) needs to bring more than a corner outfielder who probably won't do much better than an .850 OPS.

 

And not to get way too ahead of ourselves, but a big-time pitcher pays off huge in the postseason when 5 decent pitchers who all have a 4.25 ERA's aren't as good as 2 great ones, a decent one, and 2 bad ones who average 4.25, since you sometimes only need your top 3.

[TheBrewer]

I can't believe you guys are cutting Crawford down just because he has a batting average over .300. You say his OBP based on batting average can fluctuate, but you have the stats right in front of you of what his batting average was for the past 5 years and by each month. how much did it actually fluctuate? the guy gets on base, he steals bases, he drives in runners, and he scores and he could also play center field. and his salary is about half as much as comparable players - take a look at what Bobby Abreu is being paid.

And while you're cutting somebody down because his stats don't measure up to your desires, when was the last time Sheets won 13 games? For as good as Sheets is supposed to be in the eyes of most brewer posters, his stats are rather mediocre. His career stats are nowhere near the hype brewer fans give him. however, yo u give him a blaket pass because he's a brewer. Why not cut him down just like you cut down opposing team's players?

Honestly, I think some of you would find fault in AROD's game.

I agree with that completely.

Giving up on 2008 because we trade Sheets? I highly doubt it. I'm sure Melvin would acquire someone else in the pitching department if it came to that trade. You can't just think short term, I think any GM who thinks that (unless your the Yankees or you have a 100+ million dollar payroll) is horrible. Melvin has to watch his payroll and he can't afford blunders to happen. It makes sense financially guys.

Your getting a guy who hits .300+/10-20HR/45-60SB... Like I said, the Brewers I don't think can afford to let Sheets walk, nor can they afford to re-sign him after this season. He's very valuable right now. Maybe not his 04' value obviously but nonetheless.

[Robideaux]

I'm sure Melvin would acquire someone else in the pitching department if it came to that trade.

Who?

[Fatter than Joey]

Honestly, I think some of you would find fault in AROD's game.

 

Yep. I fault him for winning 0 world series, and scoring all his points in garbage time.

[TheBrewer]

TheBrewer wrote:

---

I'm sure Melvin would acquire someone else in the pitching department if it came to that trade.

Who?

Honestly I'm not sure who off hand. It's been rumored that Billy Hall would depart to the White Sox for one of their pitchers. If that did happen, we'd be short again an OF. I'm not sure, but right now I'm very confident in Doug Melvin.

[brettac1]

The reason I don't think you can compare a guy like Crawford with someone like Pierre is that Crawford has 15-20 HR power and smacks a lot of hard hit balls in general. He's not a slap hitter like Pierre, therefore you don't see his AVG fluctuating so much. He's a rare player who can pretty much carry a high average and OBP without a high walk rate due to a combination of speed and line-drive hitting.

 

I'm a guy who would rather have Kevin Youkilis lead off for me than Pierre or whomever, but Crawford doesn't scare me at all in regards to having his average fall off a cliff. I think he's a future MVP that's just scratched the surface to this point of what he will become. He's a dynamic offensive player.

 

I'd rather get someone like that for Sheets than just get draft picks for him, because there's no way in hell he's coming back after '08 regardless.

[brosto1]

I like to use OPS as much as anyone, but speed must be factored in. If Crawford gets 65 singles or walks, and steals 50 bases while being caught 15 times it would be similar to him having 50 doubles and 15 more outs. I am not going to take the time to do the math, but if you look at it like this I would guess it would raise an OPS about 40-50 points. His speed should also lead to more fastballs being thrown to hitters behind him.

 

Also would like to note, that I agree with everything brettac mentioned in his last post.

[Weirdos19]

Before everybody goes crazy, realize that this would be the first of multiple deals.

If Crawford for Sheets is real, that leaves us with extra money. A trade for another pitcher could definately be in the works. And, that leaves us with the money to resign Cordero and maybe sign a FA.

I think we need to be open to this idea. A Crawford, Hart, Braun outfield with Hall/Blalock at third? Me likey.

Remember, the Brewers are basically adding 3 starting pitchers (Gallardo, Villy, Parra) to last years group from opening day. And is 30 starts from Yovanni more important than 20 from Sheets? You bet.

[Robideaux]

1. A single + a successful stolen base is only equal to a 2B when nobody is on-base when you come up to bat.

2. I think there was a study done (no idea by whom) that showed that batters don't do any better with a base stealer on first. I don't know why, but I would speculate that although it may distract the pitcher/defense, it can also distract the batter and potentially cause him to swing at pitches that are balls to protect the runner.

[Oldcity]

because there's no way in hell he's coming back after '08 regardless.

Why is this an automatic assumption? We haven't heard anything from Sheets or the Brewers indicating this. He re-signed once, why is it out of the question that he'd re-sign again?

 

[Weirdos19]

And, whose to say the Brewers wouldn't be in the running if they trade him?

[endaround]

Because if Sheets isn't resigned this off season the Brewers can't afford him. If Sheets gets to free agency he's gone. Right now I think he still could be had for something along with what Oswalt got last year.

[Big Reed]

I have no problem with brewer fans not wanting Crawford. I have no problem with people disagreeing with my viewpoints, or correcting me when I' m wrong. I do have a problem with the way you tear apart the stats of players on opposing teams as your reasoning for not liking him, and you don't do the same type of analysis on your own brewers' players. That is what I object to. You should use the same thinking / analysis about both brewers and other team's players. You find fault so easy with other team's players, but if a brewer player is having a bad year, it's wait until next year philosophy or excuses.

 

I find it hard to believe that nobody brought up the fact that Crawford has played some Cf in his past. He didn't start many games at center, but he has played there. He no longer plays center because the D Rays wanted to start Baldelli in center, and now they want to start Upton in center. I think Crawford would make a great defensive CF for the brewers and a lot better one than Hall.

 

So the guy gets hits instead of walks. How many hitters had an OBP better than Crawford's at .355 last year and produced more? Soriano had an OBP of only .339. Damon was at .351. Bay was at .327. Sizemore was at .390. Regardless if he draws a walk, or gets a hit, the fact remains, Crawford got on base. and he got on base at a .355 clip. Youkilis would be a great addition, but where's he going to play? First? third?

 

In comparing Crawford to Bay, I would just point out Crawford is 3 years younger than Bay. Bay has a lot more power, and Crawford has more speed. Bay would make an excellent addition. I'd love for the brewers to trade for bay. but I know it's going to take the exact same package to do so. Bay is not going to come any cheaper than Crawford is.

 

I can understand the love Brewers fans for a home grown pitcher like Sheets. But I've never understood why you are so negative towards players on other teams and you bring up only the stats you desire to show how bad a player is. You use one stat to prove your point and then ignore the overall picture of the player. Why didn't anybody mention Crawford had a .394 OBP with runners on base? or that Crawford hit .318 against lefties and .314 against righties last year? or that his post all star game average was .358? Crawford brings many great things to the table. This past year with upton as their lead-off hitter, Crawford got the majority of at bats hitting second and third. I would believe it's more important for a batter hitting second or third to hit the ball and put it in play rather than trying to draw a walk. Am I wrong?

 

I'm not asking anybody to stop loving Sheets. That would be like trying to tell brewer fans that Prince Fielder's best position is dh and eventually he'll play for a team that has a dh slot.. All I' m asking is that when you look at a proposed trade, you use the same objectivity for the brewer player proposed to be traded as you do the player from the other team.

 

Crawford is typically a first or second round fantasy pick. Sheets is about a 10th round pick, and Capuano often goes undrafted. Fantasy baseball is driven by stats. So I would think stats wise, Crawford must be doing something great. For all of you people who use stats to downgrade Crawford, I'm sure you use those same stats as part of your fantasy baseball drafting strategy, don't you?

 

There is a new rumour on Yahoo today that Crawford might be headed to San Francisco for starting pitcher Lincecum. it would be San fran's gain and our loss.

 

as for AROD, how many world series rings did Hank Aaron, Willie Mays , Cal Ripken, Robin Yount and Barry Bonds collectively earn? yes the number is more than 1, but it's under 5 which is surprisingly low for 5 hall of famers who each played more than 20 years. I think we can cut AROD some slack.

[logan82]

I wouldn't give up a starting pitcher(our weakness last year) for a corner outfielder and more offense(our strength last year). I wouldn't want to add more to our already potent offense by taking away our best pitcher and weakening an already weak rotation. Yo and CV might be better than Sheets going forward, but they haven't pitched more than a couple months in the big leagues. To me the minimal extra that he, or any OFer, would add to our offense would more than be offset by trading Sheets. I doubt we would be able to pry a pitcher of Sheets quality away from another team without giving up something substantial in return which would further weaken our team. I don't see how we could trade Sheets and another one of our position players and come up with a net gain.

 

Clearing Sheets' salary for next year does just that, opens up more money for next year. Our young talent is only going to get more expensive from this year forward. Clearing money next year does not mean we have enough money to sign Cordero or any other big free agent going forward.

[Big Reed]

it's clear Tampa Bay would prefer young talent verses a guy like Sheets.

 

Is Crawford worth Yo? because Yo is the type of player Tampa Bay wants.

 

I would love to add Crawford. But adding Crawford at the expense of giving up Sheets improves a strength that doesn't really need improving, while it tears to shreads our starting pitching staff. yes, Crawford would add more speed and defense. But I'd hate t o see the brewers' rotation without somebod y the caliber of sheets. I would feel very uneasy, if we went into next year without Sheets in the rotation.

 

on the other hand, if the brewers could acquire Crawford, and give up a player like Capuano, bush, vargas, parra, Villenuava or say Jeffress, i would make that deal. I would give up our young pitching prospects without thinking twice for Crawford.

[Oldcity]

Because if Sheets isn't resigned this off season the Brewers can't afford him. If Sheets gets to free agency he's gone. Right now I think he still could be had for something along with what Oswalt got last year.

Well, sure obviously. But why couldn't they re-sign him before '08 starts? I would really prefer they tried that before trading him for a not-great corner outfielder.

 

[dadofandrew]

I think Doug has already decided he does not want to resign Sheets to a 4y/$60M+ deal, mostly because of his health history.

[Oldcity]

Well if that's the case then they do need to trade him this off-season.

[BREWCREW5]

Let me add that it would appear that Sheets will probably be traded this offseason even if it isnt for crawford...

[TheBrewer]

I agree completely with what Big Reed said on the longer post above. I had mentioned that in the other thread. Theres tons of things I'm sure you guys could find about A-Rod this season. If you wana find something I'm sure you can find something. That goes for any player.

[MNBrew]

Big trade ideas always make the off-season fun. But they also can get quite carried away -- which of course is also part of the fun. My 2¢...

 

- Ben Sheets does love Milwaukee and the Brewers. And my gut feeling says he'd be very open to remaining a Brewer past '08.

- It's not a given that the Brewers are determined to trade him. Melvin said he'd listen. But he listens about everyone, as he's done every year. Many things get ruled out right away. So this hardly means Sheets is on his way out.

- Whether by quirky coincidence or direct causality, the Brewers win at a much better rate when Sheets is on their active roster than when he's not, and Melvin knows that.

- Carl Crawford would be a very nice addition. But I have a hard time viewing him as the savior, either -- or "final piece" as someone in this thread put it.

 

I'd think the Brewers would far prefer getting a good return on Capuano than Sheets at this point. Capuano had 1.5 very good seasons but hasn't shown many flashes of being an ace. Sheets is the ace. You think long and hard about ever trading your ace. And trading a legit #1 ace had better net you bundles in return.