So if Carl Crawford is 1a.) we better lower our standards...

[Robideaux]

Big Reed,

I totally agree. It's tiresome that just because a player's stats don't indicate that he gets on base a lot or hits for power, posters on this board automatically think that he is no good. It's completely prejudicial.

I was at a game at Wrigley in July, and Theriot hit like 2 or 3 doubles and almost singlehandedly beat us that night, but stats won't tell us that. People need to get their noses out their spreadsheets and actually watch a few games--maybe then they will get a better idea of how to judge a player's value.

[RyDogg66]

It's tiresome that just because a player's stats don't indicate that he gets on base a lot or hits for power, posters on this board automatically think that he is no good. It's completely prejudicial.

Why is it prejudicial to use statistical evidence to show that a player does not get on base or hit for power?

I was at a game at Wrigley in July, and Theriot hit like 2 or 3 doubles and almost singlehandedly beat us that night, but stats won't tell us that. People need to get their noses out their spreadsheets and actually watch a few games--maybe then they will get a better idea of how to judge a player's value

Perhaps you prefer it if we judged players only on games we actually go to? I mean, I was once at a game where Chad Moeller hit for the cycle. The stats said he stunk, but I knew better, he almost singlehandedly won the game for us that night, but the stats wont tell us that.

[pogokat]

those doubles you saw were in the stats...he just didn't do it very often...

 

i saw junior spivey get 4 hits off greg maddux his rookie year...he also stole 4 bags that day...which told me nothing about spivey other than he had a good game

[homer]

Robideaux

You site two doubles from one game out of 162. Seasonal stats take into account ALL games. Which is he more likely to reproduce - one game or a full season?

 

Not to mention, Chad Moeller hit for the cycle once.

[Big Reed]

I still say theriot is a lot better than his stats would indicate. Izturis was supposed to be the Cubs ' starting shortstop. and Derosa was signed as a free agent to start at second. Theriot beat out De Rosa to start at second and then was shifted over to shortstop because of ituiriz' injury or just plain mediocrity. Essentually, the cubs wanted to keep theriot in their every day line-up, so they found a starting spot at shortstop for him.

 

that should say something about the guy.

 

he's gritty and scrappy.

[trwi7]

Theriot was the starter at SS because he was the best option not because he was good. Their choices were Theriot, Izturis and Cedeno and Theriot is the best out of all of them although maybe you could argue Izturis because of his defense.

 

Gritty and scrappy are terms used for baseball players that really aren't good but supposedly bring more "intangibles" and a "winning attitude" to the team.

[TooLiveBrew]

I still say Theriot is a lot better than his stats would indicate.

 

I want to preface by saying this is an honest question: What do you mean? He plays poor defense, and isn't much of a threat at the plate. Is he a good athlete? Sure - but that doesn't equal being a good MLB player.

[SmartBall]

So I understand the arguments between people who emphasize different stats, which one means more, are RBIs useless, etc, but the argument in this thread between I saw him make a good play once so he must be good versus a career of barely mediocrity. Use counting stats, use sabermetrics, use whatever you want that takes into account more than 4 ABs, but he isn't very good, and he is rather old for a rookie so he isn't going to get better. Why did he play, I don't know, maybe Lou liked saying "The Riot" or maybe they didn't have anyone better, but I don't want him and I would bet most GMs and scouts would agree

[endaround]

The difference between Theriot and Rottino is small. Theriot can sort of play short stop and Rottino can sort of play catcher. If the Brewers put Rottino as a big part of a deal to get Crawford it would be laughable.

[Fatter than Joey]

maybe they didn't have anyone better

 

The one nice thing you can say about Theriot is that he isn't Izturis or Cedeno -- He is probably better defender than these guys as well.

 

Ryan Theriot .266 .326 .346

Cesar Izturis .246 .298 .304

Ronny Cedeno .203 .231 .392

 

But if you look at the NL SS's Theriot is in the bottom. -- really the only guys behind him are Vizquel, Felipe Lopez and Everett.

 

Theriot had a great July which corresponded to when the Cubs got hot, so people may associate him with better results.

 

SS is def. a big need for the Cubs

[lukevan]

I kinda took Robideaux's post as sarcasm toward stat haters... looks like he's got it in blue font now.

[joshjs]

Speculation that the Brewers are after Crawford, along w/ commentary: http://gothambaseballmagazine.com/forums/index.php?topic=431.0

[molitor fan]

To me the trade would look something like this:

 

Tampa gets Alan Horne, Ian Kennedy, Kyle Farnsworth, Mat Gamel

Yankees get Sheets

Brewers get Crawford and Al Reyes

[dadofandrew]

The Crew would need SP back though.

[splitterpfj]

Is anyone familiar with the site that posted that rumor? There's no source given, etc, are those guys typically credible?

[TooLiveBrew]

He is probably better defender than these guys as well.

 

That's pretty much nearly impossible. Theriot is a very sub-par defender. (at SS anyway)

[dadofandrew]

863 ZR has Theriot tied for 3rd in the NL with the qualifiers, just behind Troy T. I think fielding is the least of his troubles.

[TooLiveBrew]

That shocks me. I watched a ton of Cubs games this year, and saw Theriot make many non-error crappy plays. This is not just a small sample of a handful of plays. If he's rated higher than JJ in RZR, then I officially don't understand RZR!

 

http://forum.brewerfan.net/images/smilies/smile.gif

[splitterpfj]

On the plus side...

 

Crawford is 26 years old, and signed potentially through 2010 - club options for both 2009, and 2010.

 

Batting average has risen every year he's been in the majors, over the past 5 seasons, he's climbed from .281 to .315.

 

Not a strikeout machine, but Ks did spike in 07 - prior 3 seasons, averaged 83 Ks, 07 saw 112 Ks, which is a career high.

 

OBP has been climbing too, from .309 as a rookie, to .355 in 07, which is a career high as well.

 

Not just a big base stealer, but an effective one as well, with a career success rate of 82%, including 85% over the last three seasons.

 

On the negative side...

 

Has had a nagging issue with his wrist, which has slowed development of power. Crawford was expected to jump to perhaps the low 20s in HR, but slid backwards, to 11 HR in 07. 3-year-average is 15 HR.

 

OBP is tied closely to batting average, Crawford does not walk much. Career high is 37 BBs, three-year- average is 32.

[TooLiveBrew]

OBP has been climbing too, from .309 as a rookie, to .355 in 07, which is a career high as well.

 

As you note in your 'Negatives' portion, his OBP rose alomst identically tied to his BA. No to Crawford, please.

[splitterpfj]

Hang in there, TooLive, Crawford has many fans out there - this one will not die easily.

[splitterpfj]

If you want to discuss Crawford in general, please use this thread. If you want to discuss Sheets for Crawford, please move over to the Sheets thread.

 

Thanks.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Not very interested in Crawford, certainly not at the expense of Sheets and/or prospects. As I pointed out earlier in the thread, and others as well, he flat out doesn't walk. An .821 OPS out of a corner outfielder really isn't all that impressive. Yes, he's a great base stealer, and yes he hits for high average, but if he doesn't hit .300, his OBP will be abysmally low. It wouldn't be such a concern, but in 5 full major league seasons, his walk totals just aren't going up year to year.

[Fatter than Joey]

While I like Crawford, I don't see how trading for him while losing Sheets is a good thing for 2008, or even beyond.

[twobrewers]

I agree that it would likely be a bad thing for 2008.

 

But Crawford would be able to help the Brewers for the next few years. If the Brewers feel that they will not be able to sign Sheets after this season - it certainly helps us in the long run.

 

2007

Sheets > Crawford

 

2008

Crawford > 2 Compensatory Draft Picks