So if Carl Crawford is 1a.) we better lower our standards...

[Madtown Bomber]

Just off the Score 670 in Chicago that Tampa Bay reportedly rejected a deal in Orlando that would have sent OF Carl Crawford and SP Jeff Niemann to Chicago for SP Rich Hill, RP Billy Petrick OF Felix Pie, SS Ryan Theriot. If they made this deal you would think it would be near certain that the Cubs would in turn go extremely hard after Alex Rodriguez to play SS.

 

If this was an actually turned down by the Devil Rays that would say that Crawford could be had without giving up JJ Hardy, Manny Parra, Seth McClung, and Tony Gwynn Jr. Do you think that is what would be the equivalant? Good lord the idea of Rodriguez and Crawford joining Rameriez, Lee, and Soriano is not what I want to hear before I go to bed.

[Madtown Bomber]

Soriano LF

Crawford RF

Rodriguez SS

Lee 1B

Rameriez 3B

DeRosa 2B

Jones CF

stick a catcher back there

pitcher...

 

If this happens this would SUCK on so many levels. That would almost force the Brewers and the rest of the central to go out and make some insane moves.

[Cracked Bat Collector]

To me that seems like the DRays would be not getting enough in return if that truly was a proposed deal.

[trwi7]

Wow the Cubs aren't too greedy are they? They're giving up a 27 year old pitcher who finally had a good year, a crappy SS, a relief pitcher who had a good 30 innings and sucked everywhere else and ANOTHER outfield prospect for Crawford and the 35th ranked prospect overall.

I can't imagine how the Rays could possibly turn that down!

[kgbaseball]

Bingo, trwi. Would've been a bad, bad deal for the Rays. Pie rotted in the MLB last year, and he hasn't really impressed anyone so far in the bigs. Theriot's a backup. Petrick is probably going to have a career as a decent reliever, and Hill should be a decent bet for a couple more years, but all of that for Niemann AND Crawford? Not nearly enough.

[MNBrew]

Crawford AND Niemann? If that proposal is close to correct, the Cubs are beyond foolish to think Tampa would ever consider that. What hometown-biased wishful thinking is that? And coming from Chicago? Hard to believe! How do you make the font blue in this Quick Reply section? The Cubs' package ought to start with Ramirez and Hill and get better and deeper from there.

 

Would anyone here trade Braun AND Gallardo (closest Brewer equivalents off the top of my head) for that collection from the Cubs? Heck, in exchange for those two I'd be expecting a nice combination of All-Stars and can't miss prospects with about all the All-Stars' salaries picked up in return.

[TheBrewer]

To me Henry I believe his name is the Cubs GM , I'm at a loss of his name, but he's always seemed to really screw other teams over and lowball them. Remember Matt Clement and Hee Seop Choi was their offer for Sexson years back. Remember how they got Ramirez back in the day. To me he always seems to lowball teams.

[Oldcity]

Yeah, if that's legit that's a truly terrible offer by the Cubs.

[JohnBriggs12]

Crawford's name comes up every year I guess because everyone believes the D-Rays can't afford him. Yet they only have to pay him $5.25 million this year and have club options for both 2009 ($8.25 million) and 2010 ($10 million).

 

They can certainly afford him this year, and still get a huge haul next offseason with multiple teams bidding as most teams would still see two years at $18.25 million as a huge bargain for Crawford.

 

You'd have to overwhelm the D-Rays now to get Crawford and that proposal from the Cubs doesn't come close.

[endaround]

It not that the DRays can't afford him, its that the DRays have too many outfielders and no pitching. Crawford is one of the most expensive ones and the one with highest trade value.

[DuWayne Steurer]

Not to switch gears, but ironically, this legitimate trade proposal by the Cubs looks extremely similar to some of the "made up" offers on our trade forum here that people look at and say "don't be ridiculous, you'd have to start with Yo and end with Braun to get that guy. This isn't even worth talking about."

 

Back to the topic at hand now, while that proposal doesn't offer enough to get Crawford, I have always maintained my position that Crawford is somewhat overrated. His career high in walks in 5 full seasons is 37, and while he's shown thus far to be an annual "right-around-300" type hitter, if he ever has a season where he slumps to .260, he's going to struggle to put up a .290 OBP. He's overvalued because he steals a lot of bases and hits .300. He'd be a heck of lot more valuable (IMO) if he was a CF, but he's not. He's a career .770 OPS guy, and while he did have a nice year last year, an .821 OPS just doesn't really knock my socks off. Going forward, I don't think he's going to be anything more than a guy who peaks right about there, maybe he has a season where he pushes .850 or so, but unless he really starts making an effort to take walks, his OBP is always going to be a hindrance.

 

That being said, would I like Carl Crawford on the Brewers? Sure as heck, but I don't think he's anything NEAR worth the package that it would in reality take to get him. If you take Crawford's stats and compare them to Randy Winn's (given that Winn is 6 years older, I'll grant that), you're looking at in all reality, 2 very similar players, minus the stolen bases. And Winn is reportedly going to take a lot less to pry from the Giants.

[RyDogg66]

IF I were the Rays Id be asking for Hill, Marmol, Soto and Pie for Crawford. That might be a good enough deal to get it done.

[TooLiveBrew]

While I agree the deal was a lowball (and RoCo, one reason proposals like that get talked down is that, if this is true, the deal got turned down), I think Pie is getting undervalued. Imho he projects very similarly to Crawford offensively, with a very reasonable chance to be better. Pie outperformed Crawford's AA-ball season in the same (Southern) league - granted Crawford's was his age 19 season & Pie's was age 20.

 

Pie's carried a better OPS his whole career to this point than Crawford at the same age. Pie doesn't walk a ton, but he walks more than Crawford, and has a good shot to equal or surpass him in SLG. To me the unequal part is the lowballing on Niemann.

[homer]

"and RoCo, one reason proposals like that get talked down is that, if this is true, the deal got turned down"

 

Huh? I don't get your point. 99% of all deals get turned down.

[DuWayne Steurer]

(and RoCo, one reason proposals like that get talked down is that, if this is true, the deal got turned down)

 

 

And just like the proposals that get talked down, rejected deals, such as this one, are often just an opening offer for a deal that's later to come.

[Big Reed]

I would like to interject that Theriot is not a crappy or back-up shortstop as several brewers fans indicated previously in this thread. just because he is a Cub, many people here have a tendency to downplay his actual value. the same goes for Pie. Down the stretch it was Theriot and not Hardy who helped lead his team to a division crown. Theriot started the year as a back-up and forced his way to becoming the Cubs' everyday shortstop. In the second half, Theriot hit well and played decent defense. Theriot also can play 2B and CF adding to his value.

 

Due to injuries to baldelli, upton played a lot of CF in the second half of last year and the DRays seem to want to keep Upton in the outfield thus creating the luxury of having too many good young outfielders. the future DRAys outfield has D young, crawford, Upton and baldelli. So obviously, one of the 4 either becomes a dh or could be traded. I doubt seriously if the D rays would trade either upton or D young. That would make either Crawford or baldelli available. And we all know the D Rays would get a lot more in return for Crawford.

 

if the Cubs do acquire Crawford and/or AROD, it will make it that much harder for the brewers to ever get close to winning a divison crown. That is why I lamented so much last August that the Brewers were not more aggressive in trying to acquire additional players to try to win last year. Admittedly, the players who changed teams via waivers last season were not front line players. however, I was kind of hoping the brewers would pull off a trade before the deadline. the signs of our August/September Swoon were becoming obvious in late July.

 

As for Crawford , i would have started last year with an offer including Hall. But with Longoria on the farm, and their existing outfielders and young SS , the D RAys have no real need or place to play Hall. Perhaps we could offer Weeks and then sign Marcus Giles as a free agent. With his salary so low, I have to believe the D rays have probably received many other offers for Crawford. their best offer is probably to just keep him. I know I would.

[dadofandrew]

Pie is an outstanding prospect, but Theriot doesn't strike me as much more than a stopgap solution, best suited for a long career as a utility guy.

 

Marcus Giles? Reed, I think your interest in Giles is as late as interest in Darin Erstad being handed an OF spot...both have been very bad for ages.

[Big Reed]

al, my thought is to give up whatever it takes to acquire Crawford, and then fill up the holes with whoever is out there on the free agent wire. Giles used to be good and he's only 29. Cleveland's barfield could also probably be acquired giving up very little in return. There are probably some other 2B free agents that could be signed as a stop gap to plug the hole if we traded Weeks. I hate to use the words graffy and starting brewers second baseman in the same sentence. kc's grudznik could be available.

 

In looking at Tampa bay, I see second base and not shortstop as their biggest need. Now that Upton is their starting CF, and Iwamura proving himself as a worthy 3B, and Tony pena at first, I see 2 Base as the drays' most glaring hole besides pitching. I heard rumors the drays were trying longoria at second either in the minors or at the Arizona Fall league.

 

as was stated in other thread, to get talent we have to give up somebody. I wouldn't feel bad about giving up Weeks to acquire Crawford. I'd also be willing to give up Weeks for Upton. I'm not down on Weeks. I just like Upton and Crawford a lot more.

[trwi7]

I would like to interject that Theriot is not a crappy or back-up shortstop as several brewers fans indicated previously in this thread.

Actually he is. He's already 27, was terrible in the minors and hit .266/.326/.346 in the majors this year. That's not good at all.

Down the stretch it was Theriot and not Hardy who helped lead his team to a division crown.

Theriot did nothing to help the Cubs down the stretch. He hit .202/.257/.263 in September. For a comparison since you brought him up Hardy hit .280/.314/.430 in September. What helped them win the division was Lilly and Zambrano pitching well, a good bullpen, Soto and Soriano going insane and Ramirez being his typical self.

Theriot started the year as a back-up and forced his way to becoming the Cubs' everyday shortstop.

He started at SS because he was their best option. Who else do they have Ronny Cedeno? In reality though he should be a backup/utility player. He's just not that good.

[DuWayne Steurer]

I wouldn't give up Weeks for Crawford straight up. Weeks is younger, and put up an .807 OPS as a 2nd sacker, as opposed to Crawford's .821 as a corner outfielder. Add in the fact that Weeks will most likely carry a higher OBP than Crawford by a significant margin.

 

The only thing that bothers me about Weeks is his long term health potential, but he seems to be over the wrist problems that hampered him earlier in the year.

[TooLiveBrew]

And just like the proposals that get talked down, rejected deals, such as this one, are often just an opening offer for a deal that's later to come.

 

That's a good point. Homer, my point on the 'deal got turned down' was typed under the assumption that the Fish thought it was a really bad deal. But you know what they say what happens when you assume...

 

Trwi took care of what I wanted to say about Theriot, except that his defense is putrid. Bad hands, not much of an arm - you could see that he's a 2B playing SS last year.

[dadofandrew]

and hit .266/.326/.346 in the majors this year. That's not good at all.

 

Theriot--.326/.346, 672 OPS, 113 OXS

Ave SS--.328/.398, 726 OPS, 131 OXS

 

He's below average, but he has value, especially if he's cheap.

[trwi7]

and hit .266/.326/.346 in the majors this year. That's not good at all.

 

Theriot--.326/.346, 672 OPS, 113 OXS

Ave SS--.328/.398, 726 OPS, 131 OXS

 

He's below average, but he has value, especially if he's cheap.

 

I said he's not good and you say he's below average so I'm right. He may be cheap but he's still not good and not a player that should be starting.

[dadofandrew]

Heh.

 

Half the players in MLB are below average, so don't get too excited. Theriot will likely have a long career, though mostly as a utility guy. He'd probably cost you one win over 600 AB's than a league average SS, so he's plenty capable.

[Big Reed]

ok , so he's not great. i don't think he fits the term crappy. The Cubs had several other players who started the season a Shortstop and second base who are now looking for a job because of theriot.

 

Thanks stats men. Everything is always crystal clear by using stats.

 

Did I mention Theriot was gritty?